From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #450 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 1 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 450 Re: tapes Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? MTV Music Non-stop Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Re: kraftwerk-digest V2 #449 Thanks for the INFO! Re: Promo question/KW Concept ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:02:47 ME Subject: Re: tapes Really-From: "PAWEL KALINOWSKI" Hi to all here. First I would like to thank for a great idea of publishing here parts of Aktivitaet. I have read in Future Music about this mag (and this mailing list as well) so I am very curious what it is about. First article I have seen here (this about tapes from different gigs) interested me very much, especially when I own probably the very last copy of the one and only bootleg recorded in 1981 in Sopot (Polish for Zoppot (for geography not-gurus: near your Danzing. Sorry. Near OUR Gdansk.:) The concert itself was nothing very special then - it was just a computerwelt promo time, but I would like to write few words on it's speciality. To understand why this gig was very special (I think) for kraftwerkians, you must know few facts on latest Polish history. First (what is now quite unbeliveable) Poland was under high influence of SU (for Soviet Union you short minded folks - yea! there was such a country near you!). Probably influence is a too modest word - it was simply occupation. And 1980 begun with immense blossom of the SOLIDARITY - the first and biggest real people's organisation here - strongly supported by Western intellectualists, including our belowed Kraftwerk. Yea - KW together with e.g. Cabaret Voltaile was attending (and organizing) a charity concerts collecting donations for the Solidarity (please find a WWW page dedicated to this subject WWW Worm found it for me some time ago). And 1981 is the time of the fastest growth of the organization having about 10 million members! A total exception and a terrifying precedence for our masters - SU. On the other hand the iron curtain was made of titan then and every apperance of the foreign artist in sovietized countries was a real holiday. These information give you a background of the KW gigs here - thousands (thousands I say!) people crowding one over another crying KRAFT! WERK! KRAFT! WERK! and heavily reacting to every move or word of KW's. Imagine the whole amphitheatre (the biggest in Poland) singing "we are the robots" (btw - KW was singing in German when Polish folks knew only English version, so you can hear on tape WE ARE THE ROBOTER). The whole show was transmitted live by one of the two existing then chnnels of the public (SU owned) TV. Ticket price - about 0.1 USD (yep.) but you must know my mother's salary was then about 9 USD monthly, so 0.1 USD was a plenty of money. Official press reactions - very very calm, pointing our the imagined facist ideology of KW (please remember West Germany was our biggest official enemy - kids were threatened by teachers with vision of new German war, etc. was was pure nonsense, of course). More about tape I have - 1.5 hours of standard KW hits with heavy background of attendant's reactions, cut in the middle of gig (das model missing), recorded on poor quality Eastern equipment, so so can not expect basses of high tones... Recorded on consolete what gives not bad stereo. Best regards Pawel /for beauty we will pay/ ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:16:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: JON ALSBURY Hi Eric, yes, Kraftwerk have toured the USA, twice I think, first time around 1974 / 75 (Autobahn) and again in 1981 (Computerwelt). I wouldn't hold out much hope of them visiting again... regards, Jon een5alsburj@unl.ac.uk http://idun.unl.ac.uk/~een5alsburj ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:36:36 +0200 Subject: MTV Music Non-stop Really-From: dvdborn@pimc.be (David Vandenborn) For those of you who watch MTV-Europe. There is a show called Music Non-stop. Are the tunes that are used in the show from Kraftwerk? It's got the Kraftwerk Vocoder-voice and the typical Kraftwerk rhythm-sounds. But I never found those recording on a Kraftwerk-album. Anybody knows? (David) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:40:49 +0100 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >yes, Kraftwerk have toured the USA, twice I think, first time around >1974 / 75 (Autobahn) and again in 1981 (Computerwelt). I wouldn't >hold out much hope of them visiting again... There were plans for them coming in 91, but i guess the sales for the Mix weren't high enough. Actually, there were more talk of them doing US+Japan than the rest of Europe. This was sometime in august 91, just after they finished UK, and no dates for Europe were booked yet. Jan Sundstrom "This world slip and you tumble down" (Swervedriver - 'Duel') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:55:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: Riverweb@aol.com To my knowledge KW has toured the US in 1975 and 1981. I saw them in 81 and walked past Florian Scheider on the stairs. They had a tour planned to promote "The Mix" in 1991 (there were even tickets sold) but it was cancelled. Russ Curry ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:20:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" >yes, Kraftwerk have toured the USA, twice I think, first time around >1974 / 75 (Autobahn) and again in 1981 (Computerwelt). There are also rumours of a Kraftwerk concert in New York, in fall 1978. I guess that this is probably a confusion with the "Man Machine" promotional party, or is there some more substance behind this rumour? And this alleged TV appearance in the 1977 Popular Music Disco Award Show, was this really a TV appearance, or was only the promo-clip for "Trans Europe Express" shown? Has anyone seen this show? Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:53:58 -0500 Subject: Re: kraftwerk-digest V2 #449 Really-From: RCroz75755@aol.com In a message dated 96-01-31 03:07:35 EST, Thomas Josef Widmer wrote: >The other day while I was watching MTV, a certain promo they were airing >got my attention. For the soundtrack they were using "telephone call" >from Electric Cafe. At the very end of the segment, I could swear I saw >a member of Kraftwerk (or one of their robots!) talking on a phone! Did >anyone else see this? I saw the promo which caught my attention because of the KW music, but it was during the Super Bowl halftime and a few beers kinda dull my attention span so I didn't catch the Robot that you are referring to. Sorry! Rob Crozier rcroz75755@aol.com ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:50:00 -0600 (CST) Subject: Thanks for the INFO! Really-From: cobra1 (Eric Knight) Thanks for the information! I feel kind of "Left Out" I really was looking forward to possibly catch a glimpse of Kraftwerk. all I have is CD's & cassette tapes. Is there possibly a Video cassette of a concert? or a video collection? Thanks Eric Knight cobra1@industry-dm.com ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 04:44:09 +0100 Subject: Re: Promo question/KW Concept Really-From: Paulo Mouat >The other day while I was watching MTV, a certain promo they were airing >got my attention. For the soundtrack they were using "telephone call" >from Electric Cafe. At the very end of the segment, I could swear I saw >a member of Kraftwerk (or one of their robots!) talking on a phone! Did >anyone else see this? By the description, and if that image was in black & white, I bet it was an extract from the video of "The Telephone Call," in which all members (not the robots) appear, in black clothing and wearing gloves, talking on the phone. I haven't actually seen the promo, but I guess its an extract from the video, which I'm fortunate to have recorded it from the portuguese national TV, when they conducted an interview with one of KW's members (Fernando Abrantes, which joined after Karl and Wolfgang left, but did not participate in the tour--being replaced by Hilpert or Schmitz, not quite sure which came last). Just to give a taste, Abrantes (he is portuguese, fyi), didn't worried or paid attention to all questions about new releases, tours, etc. He spent all the interview focusing on the Kraftwerk concept, which is the band's sole priority (as Ralf pointed out once), the music and their musical expression only a by-product. Mind you, it's not *a* concept, it's *the* Kraftwerk concept (which is in perfect accord with a thread in this list that referred--correctly, I might say--the idea of Gesamtkunstwerk, or Global Art). Best! - -- ********************************** Paulo Mouat - mouat@telepac.pt Theoretical Physics Dept, FCUL ********************************** ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #450 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #451 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Friday, 2 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 451 KW segment on M-TV Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Re: Tour De France ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 07:55:40 EST Subject: KW segment on M-TV Really-From: mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, Well, last night while at a friend's house I did see the M-TV commercial that was mentioned here in a previous post as of late. While I have not yet seen any the original video for 'The Telephone Call', I would safely venture a guess that the clip did indeed come from that source. Throughout the commercial are sound bits extracted from 'The Telephone Call', and at the very end of the commercial is a shot of Florian Schneider sitting motionless at a desk, holding a telephone in his hand. The clip was shot in black & white and slowly pans closer to Schneider over the 3 or 4 seconds it airs. In any event, it was a welcome site and sound. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu "We are the robots..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 19:03:45 +0000 Subject: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > Mind you, it's not *a* concept, it's *the* Kraftwerk concept (which is > in perfect accord with a thread in this list that referred--correctly, > I might say--the idea of Gesamtkunstwerk, or Global Art). Hm, I still doubt that "Gesamtkunstwerk" is a good description of their concept. May I ask why exactly do you think that their work can be seen as a Gesamtkunstwerk? I still think that drama is an essential part of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea, and I'm not able to recognize any dramatic elements in Kraftwerk's concept. Further, lyrics and music should be of similar importance in a Gesamtkunstwerk, but songs like "Autobahn" or "Trans Europe Express" can be understood without lyrics, the music alone contains the complete message, the lyrics add only to it. In a Gesamtkunstwerk, in the way Richard Wagner (and others) developed this idea in the 19. century, it should be impossible or at least almost impossible to isolate single parts of a Gesamtkunstwerk from the entire work without changing the message, and I think that this is clearly not the case with Kraftwerk songs. Any different opinions? Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:01:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Tour De France Really-From: lost@astral.magic.ca (Steve Cowan) >Besides, and this goes to the whole list, the sound quality of >"Tour de France" seems rather bad compared to other KW stuff, even >the CD-version on "DJ's Best - german dancefloor classics" sounds >a little bit dull (is this the right word? Can't find my dictionary!) >Any comments about this are appreciated! Hmmm... I'd have to say it's rather a nifty kind of sound. Listen closely to Tour de France's percussion - the snare sound changes all over the place (common with KW but particularly effective and subtle on this track). Yes, it has a certain muted quality, but I think this is something that they aimed to achieve. The voice sounds and instruments all sound bright and fat. But there's something delightfully weird about that tappy kick drum and those little reso-synth hi-hats all over the place that make Tour de France come alive. BTW, the version on "DJ's Best - german dancefloor classics" seems to be a significantly different mix than the original 12" version. Steve J. Cowan [ e-mail: sc@magic.ca ] Producer, "Lost in Cyberspace" [ e-mail: lost@astral.magic.ca ] Admin, Wavestation Mailing List [ WWW: http://www.magic.ca/~lost/ws.html] ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #451 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #452 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Saturday, 3 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 452 Re: kraftwerk-digest V2 #451 Re: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Re: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Bussy Book in USA. Re: Bussy Book in USA. More on Gesamtkunstwerk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:46:45 +0000 Subject: Re: kraftwerk-digest V2 #451 Really-From: DHOLTON@derwent.co.uk >BTW, the version on "DJ's Best - german dancefloor classics" seems to be a >significantly different mix than the original 12" version. Does anyone know how I can get my hands on a copy of this please ?? Dave Holton(dholton@derwent.co.uk) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 16:16:17 +0100 Subject: Re: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Really-From: Paulo Mouat > Hm, I still doubt that "Gesamtkunstwerk" is a good description of their > concept. May I ask why exactly do you think that their work can be seen > as a Gesamtkunstwerk? "We make music, but we do not meet or talk with other musicians: We have friends that are scientists, Ph Ds... We're more interested in computer graphics and graphic design... In Germany, we call that Gesamtkunstwerk." (Ralf Hu"tter, interview in the french Keyboards) > I still think that drama is an essential part of the Gesamtkunstwerk > idea, and I'm not able to recognize any dramatic elements in Kraftwerk's > concept. We should define "drama" before developing our discussion. Also, you refer below the concept of Gesamtkunstwerk in the context of Richard Wagner and the 19th century. As with most 20th century music, and I mean the music composed by the heirs of Wagner--the great composers of this century, such as Stockhausen, Cage and others--those concepts have evolved and apply also to other aspects of music composition and performance, nonexistent in the past century. The composers also have other preoccupations. What I want to say is that the musical drama of today perhaps shouldn't be evaluated purely by comparing it to 19th century or classical drama. The drama of Kraftwerk is daily life, those things we do everyday; every KW fan surely feels some kind of elation when travelling by train. Maybe the stage play presents itself to the audience when the audience itself is the actor. Be it travelling by train, by automobile, using a pocket calculator, looking in the mirror, all drama is there, not in written or spoken text but in interaction. One is *living* the drama, not attending it. > Further, lyrics and music should be of similar importance in a > Gesamtkunstwerk, but songs like "Autobahn" or "Trans Europe Express" > can be understood without lyrics, the music alone contains the > complete message, the lyrics add only to it. "Communication through words is very limited. We always wanted to communicate through music and images: Our music is very visual." (Ralf Hu"tter, same as above) > In a Gesamtkunstwerk, in the way Richard Wagner (and others) developed this > idea in the 19. century, it should be impossible or at least almost impossible to > isolate single parts of a Gesamtkunstwerk from the entire work without > changing the message, and I think that this is clearly not the case with > Kraftwerk songs. - -- ********************************** Paulo Mouat - mouat@telepac.pt Theoretical Physics Dept, FCUL ********************************** ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 21:38:19 +0000 Subject: Re: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > "We make music, but we do not meet or talk with other musicians: We have > friends that are scientists, Ph Ds... We're more interested in computer > graphics and graphic design... In Germany, we call that Gesamtkunstwerk." > (Ralf Hu"tter, interview in the french Keyboards) Ralf Huetter is wrong, IMHO. Take a German encyclopedia of your choice, and I'm quite sure you will find that the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" is *only* used in the Wagnerian sense. When Ralf Huetter speaks of making music and adding computer graphics and graphic design to it, Germans would call that "Multimedia-Kunst", I think. And I do also think that there's a big difference between multimedia art and a "Gesamtkunstwerk". On the other hand, it's correct that *one* element of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea is that the artist makes everything on his own, without or almost without any help from outside. Here I agree with Ralf Huetter, Kraftwerks working methods are indeed "gesamtkunstwerkish", but I think that this alone is not enough. > As with most 20th century music, and I mean the music > composed by the heirs of Wagner--the great composers of this century, such > as Stockhausen, Cage and others--those concepts have evolved and apply also > to other aspects of music composition and performance, nonexistent in the > past century. The composers also have other preoccupations. > What I want to say is that the musical drama of today perhaps shouldn't > be evaluated purely by comparing it to 19th century or classical drama. You're absolutely right. Of course it would be silly to claim that the Gesamtkunstwerk idea is limited to the elements Wagner knew, and I never intended to give this impression. > We should define "drama" before developing our discussion. > The drama of Kraftwerk is daily life, those things we do everyday; every > KW fan surely feels some kind of elation when travelling by train. Maybe > the stage play presents itself to the audience when the audience itself is > the actor. > Be it travelling by train, by automobile, using a pocket calculator, > looking in the mirror, all drama is there, not in written or spoken text > but in interaction. One is *living* the drama, not attending it. Here I disagree. Of course it's true that the term "drama" has different meanings, depending from the context in which it is used, but I think that in the Gesamtkunstwerk context it is clearly defined as theatre, which means that drama should have an action, performed by actors, and that it is *different* from real life. I don't want to say that all the elements of classical drama should be present, but if we use drama in the way you suggest (which would make very good sense in a different context), we would get something *completely* different from the Gesamtkunstwerk idea Wagner was thinking of. And if the result is completely different, it should be named different, I think. > > Further, lyrics and music should be of similar importance in a > > Gesamtkunstwerk, but songs like "Autobahn" or "Trans Europe Express" > > can be understood without lyrics, the music alone contains the > > complete message, the lyrics add only to it. > > "Communication through words is very limited. We always wanted to > communicate through music and images: Our music is very visual." > (Ralf Hu"tter, same as above) Yes, exactly, that's what I mean, and that's the reason why I think that Kraftwerk's work is no Gesamtkunstwerk. Kraftwerk communicate mainly through music, but not so much through words, while in a Gesamtkunstwerk words should have the same or at least almost the same importance as the music. To give a summary of my opinion: Kraftwerk's working methods have certain similarities with the working methods of a "Gesamtkunstwerk" artist, but the result of their work is rather multimedia art than a Gesamtkunstwerk. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 17:20:38 EST Subject: Bussy Book in USA. Really-From: mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, Hello all. A while back there was plenty of discussion which focused on the Pascal Bussy book about Kraftwerk entitled "Man, Machine, and Music". The Kraftwerk FAQ provides us with an address for the book's publishers in England, but I'd like to know if anyone has an address where the book may be purchased or ordered here in the United States. I'm located in the New York City area and have checked all the major bookstores in the area like Waldenbooks, B. Dalton, Barnes & Noble, Tower Books, and Barton's. Unfortunately, I was unable to locate the book anywhere. Once again, if anyone has info on where the book can be obtained in the U.S., please let me know. Thanks. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu "Turn the dials with your hand..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:03:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Bussy Book in USA. Really-From: Darrell Sellers At 05:20 PM 2/2/96 EST, you wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu that >says: 'unsubscribe kraftwerk' and 'unsubscribe kraftwerk-digest' in the message >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Really-From: mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu > > >Fellow Kraftwerkians, > > Hello all. A while back there was plenty of discussion which >focused on the Pascal Bussy book about Kraftwerk entitled "Man, >Machine, and Music". The Kraftwerk FAQ provides us with an address >for the book's publishers in England, but I'd like to know if anyone >has an address where the book may be purchased or ordered here in the >United States. I'm located in the New York City area and have checked >all the major bookstores in the area like Waldenbooks, B. Dalton, >Barnes & Noble, Tower Books, and Barton's. Unfortunately, I was >unable to locate the book anywhere. Once again, if anyone has info on >where the book can be obtained in the U.S., please let me know. >Thanks. > >Robotically Yours, >Scott M. Barnhill >mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu >"Turn the dials with your hand..." > > I tryed to send for the book or information and got nothing back!! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 08:08:41 +0100 Subject: More on Gesamtkunstwerk Really-From: Paulo Mouat Fellow co-listers, sorry for this rather dense message, but it concerns a rather important issue in the KW concept and aesthetics, that of Gesamtkunstwerk, and it may be of general interest, since there were some recent postings asking for a correct designation for their music, and since this may be a start to develop on the philosophical and purely conceptual side of the band. > Take a German encyclopedia of your > choice, and I'm quite sure you will find that the term > "Gesamtkunstwerk" is *only* used in the Wagnerian sense. This is incorrect. The term may have originated with Wagner, meaning a unity of music and drama, but it transcended this boundary to mean also a combination of architecture, sculpture and painting in european Baroque, for example. So, the use of the term is not exclusive to the Wagnerian context as is claimed above. > Of course it's true that the term "drama" has different > meanings, depending from the context in which it is used, but I think > that in the Gesamtkunstwerk context it is clearly defined as theatre, > which means that drama should have an action, performed by actors, > and that it is *different* from real life. I don't want to say that > all the elements of classical drama should be present, but if we use > drama in the way you suggest (which would make very good sense in a > different context), we would get something *completely* different > from the Gesamtkunstwerk idea Wagner was thinking of. And if the > result is completely different, it should be named different, I > think. We are not talking about Wagner's idea of Gesamtkunstwerk, we are discussing the evolution of the term and the necessary shifts in interpretation the term might have suffered. To give an example, Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune" is cited as being composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk, and it is simply a symphonic poem, i.e. doesn't have any action or stage performance. The result is very different from the usual declamatory Wagner style, and this comes from a composer who was Wagner's contemporary. > When Ralf Huetter speaks of making music and adding computer graphics > and graphic design to it, Germans would call that "Multimedia-Kunst", > I think. And I do also think that there's a big difference between > multimedia art and a "Gesamtkunstwerk". > Kraftwerk's work is no Gesamtkunstwerk. Kraftwerk communicate > mainly through music, but not so much through words, while in a > Gesamtkunstwerk words should have the same or at least almost the > same importance as the music. If Debussy's "Prelude" evokes the drama purely with musical means, why shouldn't Kraftwerk? Moreover, in a KW live performance, I think there are sufficient elements to call it more than "multimedia art," or else everything today which claims to be a Gesamtkunstwerk is condemned to be *mere* multimedia art (or maybe Gesamtkunstwerk is some sort of archaic term that once designated one particular type of usage of music and drama...). The idea of Gesamtkunstwerk is a reflection of the programmatic preoccupations of 19th century composers, which is an intense desire to endow music with meaning and to make it a vehicle of communication. All of this is present in a Kraftwerk live performance. There are settings, provided by large video screens, there are actors (four mechanical robots running a prescribed choreography), there is text (a few words may be more valuable than a hundred-page libretto), and there is music, bringing the whole to unity, etc, etc. Curiously, changing any of these elements breaks this whole, as in a Gesamtkunstwerk--imagine a Kraftwerk performance based on classical drama, with Ralf in duetto with Florian, both extending an arm to praise their pocket calculators singing an aria with their tenor voices... I referred on a previous message the daily-life influence on KW's music. That daily-life drama, which I claimed to be transposable to the listener, should be clear when we hear not an aria praising pocket calculators but an incisive text with a minimum of words actively referring the exhilarating experience of interacting with the machine. ("I am adding, and subtracting. I'm controlling and composing.") It all is very personalized and individualistic, in such a way that the listener is not listening to a recitation of some big opus but participating in that experience. In this sense, words have similar importance as the music--they make it very objective. One other question that might arise is (and it turns the whole discussion upside down) "Is a Gesamtkunstwerk more complete than a multimedia artwork?" or, if I may put it another way, "Is a Gesamtkunstwerk--a global artwork--more global than true multimedia art?" Maybe we're talking of the same thing, after all. The quotes ">" in this text are from Klaus Zaepke (Please do continue this appealing debate. If your second obsession is Wagner, mine is Musicology and the Webern cult :-)). Best regards! - -- ********************************** Paulo Mouat - mouat@telepac.pt Theoretical Physics Dept, FCUL ********************************** ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #452 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #453 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Sunday, 4 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 453 Re: More on Gesamtkunstwerk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:44:45 -0500 Subject: Re: More on Gesamtkunstwerk Really-From: ChipLamb@aol.com Hi folks: As an avid "Kraftwerker" and a new subscriber to this list, I would like to say something in regards to Paolo's recent study on Collective Artworks or whatever the best translation is (mein Deutsch ist sehr schwach). I regard Kraftwerk as the progression of Classical music without many of the influences which American and Negro music has had on popular music and 'techno' over the past fifty or so years. Clearly, Kraftwerk's style of theme and variations, quite different from a typical song and refrain, is more alikened to classical and romantic works of the 1800's and the classical music of the 20th century. Therefore this legitimises somewhat the classification that Kraftwerk, like Wagnerian and hopefully other styles of classical music, is a collection of art and music. For when people heard Wagner most often and do today, it is rarely accompanied by sets and designs but with members of an orchestra playing. When I in my car or here at home listen to Kraftwerk on CD I have to come up with that art in my head. I think the effect of Kraftwerk on someone has the ability to change their perspectives and make them think of the art which subliminally comes to mind. Never mind Ralf and Florian making strange gestures to each other while on stage; their sublime character when live is better than any act they could put on. This attitude has been reflected in their music for many years and makes Kraftwerk stand out from the fray of electronic music not only as its origin but as a marque which is virtually untouchable. Hope this stirs some conversation! Alle die Besten für Kraftwerk-fans der Welt herober! William C.W. "Chip" Lamb ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #453 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #454 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Monday, 5 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 454 Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Elektric Music & Information Society Gloria Estefan? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 04:55:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: NDKent@aol.com Here is my minor 1991 The Mix Tour story. I mentioned to the computer class I was teaching a couple of days before the scheduled show I was spending my lunch break going to try to get some tickets to the Kraftwerk show (Beacon Theater, I believe) . One of my students mentioned "Oh that show got cancelled". Well it's good to have clued in students. The reason going around town why they cancelled the U.S. was that they had to finish up a mix on their single-- which had to be Radioactivity. Sounds like an excuse, I'm sure it was poor album sales. I wonder if I kept the newspaper ad somewhere. On a different subject I've got a U.S. Capitol 12" I have not seen on the couple of discographies I have handy-- THE MODEL/NEON LIGHTS Capitol 8526. RE: Bussy Book in USA-- That's ironic, and you'll be a bit mad at me. I just bought a copy in NYC at Rocks in Your Head (Prince St by W. B'way) for $20. They didn't seem to have more, but I'd suggest you contact them since if they ordered it once, they can order it again. Other places that might be able to obtain it are Other Music (4th St by Lafyette), which has the Tonefloat bootleg and had the CAN book by Bussy (I bought it) and Tower Books on the next block. Tower sold out of the Can book, so I suspected they might have the KW one, I've checked a bunch of times, but they don't have it. I thought I'd mention the Julian Cope (yeah the British musician) KRAUTROCKSAMPLER book. Head Heritage, KAK Ltd., 1995, 142 pages with color photos. He covers the German Kosmische scene from around 1968-75. He probably gets too excited over the albums he likes and it seems to have some errors (not that I'm an expert). On the other hand there isn't much in the way of books on the subject and is well researched. Discusses early KW, although not surprisingly, the Bussy book covers that period in much greater depth. Nicholas Kent ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 22:05:47 +0100 (MET) Subject: Elektric Music & Information Society Really-From: Hillebrand Boorsma Yesterday I bought for Dfl 5,- (3US$ or so?) 'Peace & Love Inc.' from Information Society. 2 tracks are produced by Elektric Music, called 'Where would I be without IBM' and 'To be free'. The problem is, I really dislike the vocal style of I.S., but the sounds of the 2 tracks is delicious, being recorded at the EM studios in Du"sseldorf. I've never heard a discussion on these tracks here. Does anyone know them ? Is there more recent work from EM with IS ?? For Dutch KW-adepts: You can get the record at the "Free Record Shop" in their "Knakenbak". And for the people who know the record: has anyone suggestions how to feed the modem data to my PC??? _______________________________________________________________________________ Hillebrand Boorsma=Boorsma@tn.tudelft.nl=+31.15.2785038(wrk) +31.15.2615553(pri) ".....most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 17:39:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gloria Estefan? Really-From: Ravi Baskaran I heard a mix of Gloria Estefan's cover of Turn The Beat around and I _swear_ I heard a sample from Sex Object ("yes!...no!") Has anyone else heard this? Ravi ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #454 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #455 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Tuesday, 6 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 455 Re: Bussy Book in USA. Re: Kraftwerk in concert Kling Klang Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Some more KW concert ticket prices MTV news / NEU! 4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 10:47:26 -0200 Subject: Re: Bussy Book in USA. Really-From: Carlos@eaesp.fgvsp.br (Carlos Jose Quinteiro) I buyed the Bussy's book (that is very, very good, with so many information about the band than I even see!) in the Internet Book Shop (http://www.bookshop.co.uk/); they send me the book a few days after the request and I pay around $20, incluind postage, etc. I think that the book is a release of a little publishing house (I'm a librarian and never saw any book of this company!), so maybe is more difficult to find in a normal book store. ---------- De: kraftwerk mailing list Para: kraftwerk Assunto: Bussy Book in USA. Data: Sexta-feira, 2 de Fevereiro de 1996 22:29 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu that message body. All messages sent to this list are automatically made available via FTP, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Really-From: mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, Hello all. A while back there was plenty of discussion which focused on the Pascal Bussy book about Kraftwerk entitled "Man, Machine, and Music". The Kraftwerk FAQ provides us with an address for the book's publishers in England, but I'd like to know if anyone has an address where the book may be purchased or ordered here in the United States. I'm located in the New York City area and have checked all the major bookstores in the area like Waldenbooks, B. Dalton, Barnes & Noble, Tower Books, and Barton's. Unfortunately, I was unable to locate the book anywhere. Once again, if anyone has info on where the book can be obtained in the U.S., please let me know. Thanks. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mdb@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu "Turn the dials with your hand..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 21:19:32 +0100 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk in concert Really-From: Robby At 10:07 30.1.96 +0200, David Vandenborn wrote: >Last week, I read somewhere and heard on the radio that Kraftwerk will be >performing life on a festival in the UK this year. > >Does anybody know more about this? I also read about this "rumour" in the teletext of german music-tv-programme VIVA. It was said, that Kraftwerk should play at a techno(!)-festival in Oxford/UK some time in spring (along with DJ Sven V=E4th, etc.). But of= course there was no confirmation by the band itself yet. Probably it`s a wishful thinking of the organizers.=20 IMHO by performing at a techno-festival, Kraftwerk would discredit themself, because they fortunately didn`t dare this so far. If they are really going to do so -without intending to promote a new album (which is very improbable)-, it means, that the impregnable living-legend-status and the true synthesizer-pioneer-image break up somehow, just for quickly making money. Although this would not be the only case in music-history. (PS: excuse my english; mail me a correction, so I can improve it!) ;-)) Robby. \\\\ ( o o ) ************oOO**(_)**OOo***************************************************= *** ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 16:58:21 -0500 Subject: Kling Klang Really-From: Curryous@aol.com Does anyone know exactly what the Kling Klang label is? Is it a KW-owned label used exclusively for issuing KW's stuff only in Germany. If it is, I find it hard to believe that there doesn't exist at least a small office staff for administration and marketing, etc. When did it start? Was Radioactivity the first release on that label? I have TEE and CW on Kling Klang. Russ Curry ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 05 Feb 96 18:03:35 EST Subject: Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> The Artwerk of Kraftwerk by Ian Calder, from Aktivitaet 7 (September 1995) Please note; Aktivitaet is unofficial and has no connection with Kraftwerk and its current members. ************************************************ Music is only part of the message of Kraftwerk. It is obvious that the band are as much concerned with the concept of 'ganzheit' (wholeness) or 'gesamtkunstwerk', so it is no surprise to learn that the bands choice of graphics also plays as important a role as the music and text. The most interesting period for Kraftwerk's cover art was in the 1970's, when the sleeve designs mixed images/concepts from various sources. Throughout the 80's and 90's, the bands record cover designs have become more simplistic and less influenced by non-Kraftwerk sources. The artwork for the 'Radioactivity' album for instance contains a multitude of images; the use of an antiquated radio set, the 'Volksempfaenger' radio set from 1930's Germany, the 'radio mast' painting, redolent of the famous 'RKO' film studios image, again from the 30's, visually depicting the invisible waves pulsing into the ether. Even the photo of Kraftwerk themselves, Ralf's choice of microphone again harks back to an earlier era. Such a microphone conjures up images of the golden age of radio, before television arrived, when it occupied prime position in the home-entertainment stakes. These images contain overtones of an earlier time and frame of mind, adding further layers of meaning that the music of 'Radioactivity' itself can't add. The stylish sleeve design for 'Trans-Europe Express' continues with this idea of recreating an image of the past, an earlier, stylish and even romantic era of travel. The photo's of Kraftwerk used on the cover actually date from a couple of years before the LP's release, before 'Radioactivity' even. These are photo's but with additional airbrush artwork, this treatment reminiscent of glamorous, film star portraits of an earlier age. The choice of typography used in the sleeve is again redolent of a 30's/40's era design, stylish sans serif type, identifiable with poster designs of such an era. The inner sleeve image is again based on an earlier portrait of Kraftwerk, first published on the German 7" single cover for 'Radioaktivitaet' in 1976. It incorporates elements of a painting by Maxfield Parrish. Parrish came to prominence primarily through his painting, 'Daybreak', a kitsch example of stylish art. (The sun-dappled leaves and mountainous background are the elements of this painting incorporated into the Kraftwerk picture.) The painting has itself featured on at least two other record sleeves; the most recent, back in 1984, was 'The Waking Hour', the first, and only, LP by Dali's Car, the band formed by Mick Karn (ex-Japan) and Peter Murphy (ex-Bauhaus). It has also been used, in a re-designed pastiche form, on a Moody Blues LP sleeve. The most striking example of this synthesis of historically inspired images is the 'Man Machine' album. Often misinterpreted as a fascistic design, it mixes the ideas of the 'man-machine' concept that Kraftwerk had talked openly of for a number of years beforehand, with the post-revolution Russian art and its idea of a 'mass man', a cog in the machinery, and similar 'rabotnik' (worker) concept too. The front cover of 'The Man Machine' is very much a take on Russian poster art, used to communicate ideals via the strong, angular graphics and heroic poses of the workers portrayed, gazing aside into the distance. The angular graphics first came to light with the art movement of constructivism, a movement with influences from both cubism and futurism; all these movements have, to varying degrees, a common theme of the machine age running throughout. Hence the ambiguity with fascism; the futurist art movement employed similar stylistic means to communicate their vision of modernity. New Order, a band influenced by Kraftwerk amongst others, have in the past used almost direct copies of Italian futurist art manifesto covers on their record sleeves ('Movement', 'Procession'/'Everything's Gone Green'). A leading figure in constructivism was an artist by the name of El (Lazar) Lissitzky. The design of the back cover of 'The Man Machine' is a straight copy on one of El Lissitzky's works. The original appeared in a book, 'Of Two Squares', first conceived in 1920, published in both German and Dutch editions later. This little book was intended, as El Lissitzky explained, as a playbook for children which might also amuse grown-ups. The design of the book is, as was El Lissitzky's aim, made from simple, geometric shapes, minimalistic in style, free from the influences of the past to represent the present and future. The only colours employed being red, black and white, a dynamic arrangement of type to add to the effect. The parallels with Kraftwerk's own musical patterns of the time are obvious; linear, minimalistic, and with an economy of effort. A sequence of events, the story of two squares and their subsequent effects, the titles of the images convey the sequence of events; 'Here are the two squares' - 'They fly on to the Earth from far away and' - 'And see a black storm' - - 'Crash - and everything flies apart' - 'And on the black was established Red Clearly' - 'This is the end - let's go on'. Similar in style to one of El Lissitzky's most recognised poster designs, 'Beat The Whites With The Red Wedge', the ideological overtones are at work in the subject. None more obvious than the work that is reproduced on the rear cover of 'The Man Machine'; a detail from the image titled 'And on the black was established Red Clearly'. The Communist overtones unavoidable. 'The Man Machine', for what little it employs in lyrics, has a lot of undercurrents running through its form. The first track, 'The Robots' is a good example of how all the elements merge together; 'robot' is derived from the Russian word 'rabotnik', meaning worker. This could be linked into the idea of 'musikarbeiter' (musical workers) that Kraftwerk have, along with the 'man machine' idea, practised and discussed in interviews for decades now. The title of the album, in English, is accurate but also applicable and conjured more from Die Mensch Maschine is the idea of 'the human machine' as well perhaps . Kraftwerk's artwork throughout the 80's and 90's has become less obvious in its outside influences, more generated from within. The 'Computer World', 'Electric Cafe' and 'The Mix' are all pretty much cast from the same die; the graphics have been reduced to computerised type, either dot-matrix style, LED style or OCR (optical character recognition) type, the images of the band themselves always synthetic; either computer-generated representations or plastic mannequins. The choice of computer used on the front of 'Computer World' is perhaps the only linkage with the past, it being a rather bulky and outdated model, even in 1981. (BTW - anyone know the exact make/model?-IAC) The exception to this rule is with the 'Tour De France' single, something of an oddity; it is based on the design used for a stamp from Czechoslovakia, again hailing from the 1930's. As much a part of everything discussed here is Kraftwerk's use of visuals for their promo videos and those projected onto the screens when the band perform live. But that's another story... - -END- ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 05 Feb 96 18:03:54 EST Subject: Some more KW concert ticket prices Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > In any event, I am curious to know what the various ticket > prices have been in the past for Kraftwerk venues. I know > that ticket prices vary with respect to the size of the venue > and such, but I am looking for a general idea. So, > get out your old ticket stubs and let me know. :o) Thanks. I've rummaged through some of the ticket stubs I've got and here are some details; Gent, Belgium. Venue; Vooruit Date; Wednesday; 26th May 1993 Ticket price; 750 Belgian Francs (UK rate then was about 49BF to the UK pound) so... about 15.30 UK pounds (approx. 23 US dollars) Capacity; no idea at all, but more than likely upwards of 1000 (a fairly big, all standing hall.) Groningen, Holland. Venue; Oosterpoort Date; Tuesday 25th May 1993 Ticket price; 35 Dutch Guilders (UK rate was, I think, about 2.45 Guilders to the UK pound so... about 14 pounds odd. (approx. 21 plus US dollars) Capacity; no idea offhand, but I did have a seating plan of the venue which would have revealed all I guess, but it's disappeared somewhere! Not a big place, much less than a thousand I guess.) Leicester, England, UK. Venue; Leicester Polytechnic Arena Date; Thursday 18th June 1992 Ticket price; 8 UK pounds sterling (approx. 12 US dollars) Capacity; most probably less than a thousand, it is a students-union type venue. Norwich, England, UK. Venue; University of East Anglia (Students) Union Date; Wednesday 17th June 1992 Ticket price; 8 UK pounds sterling (approx. 12 US dollars) Capacity; most probably less than a thousand, it is a students-union type venue. Aberdeen, Scotland, UK. Venue; The Capitol. Date; Wednesday 10th July 1991 Ticket price; 9 UK pounds sterling (approx. 13.50 US dollars) Capacity; somewhere between 1,000-1,500 I think, though for the KW show only the stalls were used, not the balcony, and even then the crowd was somewhat sparse! Manchester, England, UK. Venue; Apollo Theatre. Date; Friday 12th July 1991 Ticket price; 9 UK pounds sterling (approx. 13.50 US dollars) capacity; no idea, but upwards of 2000 probably. Finally, all of the above have rather boring ticket designs! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 05 Feb 96 18:03:45 EST Subject: MTV news / NEU! 4 Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> I received a letter from one Aktivitaet;s readers telling me that just after new year there was mention on an MTV programme about a new KW album, nothing more than this is known I'm afraid. Also, copies of NEU!'s previously unavailable mid-80's recording 'NEU! 4' have appeared, apparently the sleeve notes from Klaus Dinger contain extensive text on his continuing legal wrangles with Metronome records to re-release the NEU! material on CD format, amongst other things. This info came via Ian Floyd of Zenith electronic music magazine, unfortunately there is still no sign of a new issue of this magazine on the horizon as yet. Still on the NEU! theme... System 7's new single 'Interstate' samples one of their tracks, 'Hallogallo' to nice effect, though the sample is only on two of the mixes on the UK CD single. Very much enjoyed Pawel Kalinowski's posting on the 1981 Polish KW concert, very interesting indeed! Following the Live Tapes article a couple of weeks back, the next Aktivitaet article to appear in the mailing list is my article on Kraftwerk and their artwork, this should also be in todays mail. Read on... Coming soon; 'Autobahn' Collectors Corner, on some of the rarities in both single and LP flavours! ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #455 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #456 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Tuesday, 6 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 456 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:17:49 -0500 Subject: Finding Bussy's Book Really-From: "Richard V. Paiement" > Hello all. A while back there was plenty of discussion which >focused on the Pascal Bussy book about Kraftwerk entitled "Man, >Machine, and Music". The Kraftwerk FAQ provides us with an address >for the book's publishers in England, but I'd like to know if anyone >has an address where the book may be purchased or ordered here in the >United States. I'm located in the New York City area and have checked >all the major bookstores in the area like Waldenbooks, B. Dalton, >Barnes & Noble, Tower Books, and Barton's. Unfortunately, I was >unable to locate the book anywhere. Once again, if anyone has info on >where the book can be obtained in the U.S., please let me know. Given a book's ISBN number and the name (and address) of its publisher, ANY book store can order a copy of it as long as the book is still in print. Any book store that says it can not do this is run by incompetents! This applies to Bussy's Kraftwerk book, which is still in print. It has an ISBN number, so just give this and the publisher's name and address to your book store and they wil be able to order a copy for you, from anywhere in the world. It may however cost you as much or maybe more than if you order it yourself. I got my copy last Fall by ordering it directly from the publisher. They accept Visa and MasterCard. Happy hunting. ********************************************************************** Richard V. Paiement, P.Eng. Internet: richard.paiement@crc.doc.ca Research Engineer Web: http://www.crc.doc.ca Radio Broadcast Systems Fax: +1 613 993 9950 Communications Research Centre, Ottawa (CANADA) K2H 8S2 begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C,.`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`*P"```"````# ````,``# $````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```$<`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!K``(P`0````4` M``!33510`````!X``S !````%0```&MR869T=V5R:T!C``$P`0```!<````G:W)A9G1W97)K0&-S+G5W M<"YE9'4G```"`0LP`0```!H```!33510.DM204945T522T!#4RY55U N1415 M`````P``.0`````+`$ Z`0````(!]@\!````! ````````0-`````P``, 4` M```+``\.`0````(!_P\!````3P````````"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"```! 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B( K [&5A+F,1@'8@P!%P!9#].%!D02]"/T-/'_(G M4P# _FH%L2AR$\ %L >11B5'P;P)@_2Y!5#C0!) H`$\4+G)341]/T380(#%$8#51 M='5NZ43Q;'DN4$DA@E ?42__4C\PX%: 5 $X%G M"W'_+E Y!SS#"X "$"B$P1/!MP#[ M-M$%0/=C(CC !4!D'^ A,'#A<.$^%)/+=K:;DN4',?X&HB ML 5 9_]HT71T:G8V1S81:O-K63AR_SE0"'!M>FIU(B #\ ,@/O'_6K9N>S52 M@#$N4 -27"=&%MYW!;!.P'L#/K)H5&%(()\%P 6@?.& ,6^2;75YP?\%L3ZQ M/O$$8'+4`Z Y`8<2SVYT;W& ,A&P;&9F%0J%]5<`9W0A;2(@;O,+8'SA_D9, M`G5!/_,+@' `;W$B ;8(J+"OMGO@J$"S<7,GD!T" JET^87YEOFG\J M_0JC4B-!"Q&04" P)Z (D.<'@ (P+E!0+CY)`C $D1' .A] !1"< M$Y8N"K"C8* @G\?_'T";I#&@(N H``-@,: GT%]\X1.D!""AMHR0>)YP*X$6 M0#8Q,R Y.:=2[C5G(0K!"%!MAX #`$7!=R+A!""@IT,A\1FP+E!/+0) 82&0 M:S!#;4!!1 )!; !+,D@@.%,+$K!V`#T``0````$`````````<3$` ` end ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:27:02 +0000 Subject: "Werke" Bootleg Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" A new Kraftwerk bootleg is available: "Werke. Westwood One-rarities on Compact Disc Vol. 55" Tracklisting: 1. Tour de France (German 12" version, 6:44") 2. Dentaku (12" version, 4:54") 3. Autobahn ("US chart single version", 3:35") 4. Kohoutek (4:05") 5. Showroom Dummies (1977 single edit, 2:38") 6. Der Telefon Anruf (12" version, 8:12") 7. Musique non stop (12" version, 6:15") 8. Sex Object (Spanish version, 6:48") 9. Radioactivity (William Orbit Hardcore Mix, 6:20") 10. Tour de France (Remix, 6:47") 11. Mini Calculateur (12" version, 5:00") 12. Housephone (4:54") 13. Autobahn (1981 reissue version, 3:08") The CD looks like one of the "Westwood One Radio Networks" Radio Shows, but it's rather obvious that it is in fact a bootleg. The sleeve shows the green cone from the "Kraftwerk 2" LP sleve. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:26:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Elektric Music & Information Society Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > And for the people who know the record: has anyone suggestions how to feed > the modem data to my PC??? There's a file with this data somewhere on the Internet. I don't remember the address, but it should be possible to find it with one of these search engines. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:25:54 +0000 Subject: Still more on Gesamtkunstwerk Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > Please do continue this appealing debate. With great pleasure :-) > > Take a German encyclopedia of your > > choice, and I'm quite sure you will find that the term > > "Gesamtkunstwerk" is *only* used in the Wagnerian sense. > > This is incorrect. Well, I've looked into some encyclopedias yesterday, and I found that the term was indeed only defined in the Wagnerian sense. >The term may have originated with Wagner, > meaning a unity of music and drama, but it transcended this boundary to > mean also a combination of architecture, sculpture and painting in > european Baroque, for example. This must not necessarily be senseful. When the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" was "invented", it was intended to describe an idealistic *future* art, which makes is *very* problematic to use it for things from the past. But maybe it's senseful to assume that there are two different meanings of the term: a wide meaning, where it is something similar like multimedia art - and a strict, "scientific" meaning, where it is limited to the "future art" idea a la Wagner and his epigones? (Comparable with the two meanings of "classical music": 1) old music in general; 2) music in a certain style from the 18. century.) > To give an example, Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune" > is cited as being composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk, and it is > simply a symphonic poem, i.e. doesn't have any action or stage > performance. Yes, you're right, it is a symphonic poem, composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk. But you will admit that "being composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk" is not necessarily the same as "being a Gesamtkunstwerk" or at least "representing the Gesamtkunstwerk idea". > Moreover, in a KW live performance, I think there are sufficient > elements to call it more than "multimedia art," What elements do you mean exactly? I admit that the use of robots could be interpreted in this way, but the robots have only a four-minute appearance in a two-hour-show. > or else everything today which claims to be a Gesamtkunstwerk is > condemned to be *mere* multimedia art Good point. We should also not forget that the Gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal, which means that in fact no piece of art is a *real* Gesamtkunstwerk. > (or maybe Gesamtkunstwerk is some sort of archaic term that once > designated one particular type of usage of music and drama...). An even better point, worth to be discussed in-depth, but I'm afraid that this would lead us too far away from Kraftwerk? > The idea of Gesamtkunstwerk is a reflection of the programmatic > preoccupations of 19th century composers, which is an intense > desire to endow music with meaning and to make it a vehicle of > communication. > All of this is present in a Kraftwerk live performance. Agreed, but the relation between music and communication in a Gesamtkunstwerk should be reciprocal (if we let aside that all music (except pure sound) is a form of communication in one way or another). This means that speech should also be used as a vehicle of music, and I can hardly recognize this in Kraftwerk songs, with only a few exceptions: The onomatopic part of "Musique non stop" ("Boing Boom Tschak"), the massive use of sharp consonants in "The Rrrrobotts", and maybe also "Ooooohm, Sweet Ooooohm" (any other suggestions?). > There are settings, provided by large video screens, there are > actors (four mechanical robots running a prescribed choreography), there is > text (a few words may be more valuable than a hundred-page libretto), > and there is music, bringing the whole to unity, etc, etc. Yes, but elements like these are present in practically every pop concert in these days. If these elements were enough to qualify for a Gesamtkunstwerk, we had to call Take That or East 17 Gesamtkunstwerk artists, simply because they sing, dance, play music, wear strange costumes and make use of videos and a light show etc. > Curiously, changing any of these elements breaks this whole, as in > a Gesamtkunstwerk--imagine a Kraftwerk performance based on > classical drama, with Ralf in duetto with Florian, both extending an arm to > praise their pocket calculators singing an aria with their tenor > voices... On the other hand, the Balanescu quartet did something in that direction with their Kraftwerk cover versions, and the result was really nice, IMHO. > I referred on a previous message the daily-life influence on KW's > music. That daily-life drama, which I claimed to be transposable > to the listener, should be clear when we hear not an aria praising > pocket calculators but an incisive text with a minimum of words actively > referring the exhilarating experience of interacting with the > machine. ("I am adding, and subtracting. I'm controlling and composing.") > It all is very personalized and individualistic, in such a way that > the listener is not listening to a recitation of some big opus but > participating in that experience. In this sense, words have > similar importance as the music--they make it very objective. No, I don't agree that the lyrics in "Pocket Calculator" are of similar importance as the music. The lyrics could be left out and the music would still be very objective. The music contains the complete story, the text has only the function to illustrate this story and to make it easier understandable. Imagine a live performance of "Pocket Calculator" without vocals. You see four "operators" controlling calculator-like devices, you see how Florian Schneider presses a special key, and then you hear a little melody. Nothing more is the content of the lyrics, while in a Gesamtkunstwerk the text should add something to the music, so that the result can only be understood through listening to both the music and the text at the same time. I've no problem to imagine an instrumental Kraftwerk concert, without any vocals at all. On the other hand, I've very big problems to imagine a lecture, "Ralf Huetter reads Kraftwerk poems" or something like that. Therefore I think that Kraftwerk's music dominates the lyrics. In one of the concerts from the 1991 tour Ralf Huetters seemed to have some problems with his microphone during "Autobahn", so they performed this track mainly instrumental. The result wasn't too bad, in fact it was an interesting variant, and the audience applauded. Imagine the opposite scenario: The synthesizers break down and Ralf Huetter has to perform the song a capella... In a Gesamtkunstwerk, it should be almost impossible to perform music without the belonging text and vice versa. > One other question that might arise is (and it turns the whole > discussion upside down) "Is a Gesamtkunstwerk more complete than a > multimedia artwork?" or, if I may put it another way, "Is a > Gesamtkunstwerk--a global artwork--more global than true multimedia > art?" Hm, now a precise definition of "multimedia" would be helpful... Spontaneously, I would say that there is a difference. Every Gesamtkunstwerk must necessarily be multimedia, while it is not necessary that every piece of multimedia art is a Gesamtkunstwerk (I'm again thinking of these Take That and East 17 shows...) Would it be correct to say that a Gesamtkunstwerk must have at least a certain philosophy, while multimedia art can also be l'art pour l'art or pure entertainment (like these "multimedia" computer games), and that a Gesamtkunstwerk must form a unity, where single parts can hardly be left out, while this is not necessarily the case with multimedia art? Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:37:18 GT-003 Subject: Re: Gloria Estefan? Really-From: "Hermann Henning Rauth" > I heard a mix of Gloria Estefan's cover of Turn The Beat around and I > _swear_ I heard a sample from Sex Object ("yes!...no!") Has anyone else > heard this? > > Ravi I did. This track appears in the 'The Specialist' Original Soundtrack. There is some other song with 'Sex Object' samples, but I can't remember right now. See ya! Hermann________Henning_________Rauth _______________L_I_F_O______________ Space_Cyber_Agressive_Machine_Groove _______________B_A_N_D______________ ________hermann@ccet.pucpr.br_______ ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:26:32 +0000 Subject: "Koeln 12.06.71" CD counterfeit Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" The "Koeln 12.06.71" picture disc bootleg has been re-bootlegged on CD. The sleeve artwork is the same as on the "original" LP-bootleg. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:49:06 +0100 Subject: Re: Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >A leading figure in constructivism was an artist by the name of El (Lazar) >Lissitzky. The design of the back cover of 'The Man Machine' is a straight >copy on one of El Lissitzky's works. >The only colours employed being red, black and white, >a dynamic arrangement of type to add to the effect. The parallels with >Kraftwerk's own musical patterns of the time are obvious; linear, >minimalistic, and with an economy of effort. Well, i checked out one of his paintings. I don't think that he was very active, i had to look for a long time before i found anything. At Louisiana in Denmark, i finally found this artwork. And yes, it really looks like the Man Machine. Stunning! Jan Sundstrom "Ring a ding ding dong, I'm going down" (Stone Roses - 'Going Down') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 16:05 EST Subject: Finding Bussy's Book Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) it's available here in toronto canada at tower records...as of today (feb 6th) they have 5 copies. dave " i'm the operator with my coffee percolator" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 1996 05:09:31 +0100 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: Paulo Mouat > Well, I've looked into some encyclopedias yesterday, and I found that > the term was indeed only defined in the Wagnerian sense. Check, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica. It is not a german encyclopedia, but its reputation is well known. You said "all," I proved that there exists at least one that proves your statement false, QED. >> mean also a combination of architecture, sculpture and painting in >> european Baroque, for example. > This must not necessarily be senseful. When the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" > was "invented", it was intended to describe an idealistic *future* > art, which makes is *very* problematic to use it for things from the > past. I quote from Britannica: "The vast majority of the best central European Baroque painting outside portraiture is monumental in scale, and the concept of the Gesamtkunstwerk--where painting, sculpture, and architecture are combined together into a single, unified, and harmonious ensemble--is of overwhelming importance." >> To give an example, Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune" >> is cited as being composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk, and it >> is simply a symphonic poem, i.e. doesn't have any action or stage >> performance. > Yes, you're right, it is a symphonic poem, composed in the spirit of > Gesamtkunstwerk. But you will admit that "being composed in the > spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk" is not necessarily the same as "being a > Gesamtkunstwerk" or at least "representing the Gesamtkunstwerk idea". How can a piece have the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk and not represent its idea? If the piece is cited as so, how did whomever designated it so come to that idea? As for "being a Gesamtkunstwerk," there is nothing that is. >> Moreover, in a KW live performance, I think there are sufficient >> elements to call it more than "multimedia art," > What elements do you mean exactly? I admit that the use of robots > could be interpreted in this way, but the robots have only a > four-minute appearance in a two-hour-show. There is an overall concept, dictating everything else. > We should also not forget that the Gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal, > which means that in fact no piece of art is a *real* Gesamtkunstwerk. Yes, one does a piece of art "in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk," and try to gather a broader realm of expression. > the relation between music and communication in a > Gesamtkunstwerk should be reciprocal (if we let aside that all music > (except pure sound) is a form of communication in one way or another). > This means that speech should also be used as a vehicle of music, and I > can hardly recognize this in Kraftwerk songs. Should it? As I said on a previous message, we're not discussing Wagner's idea of Gesamtkunstwerk. We're not on the 19th century anymore. We're analyzing something that may be interpreted today as today's concept of Gesamtkunstwerk, whatever it means. If we restricted ourselves to the original sense of this kind of terminology, we should--we definitely should--consider most of 20th century music as *not-music*, starting, say, with integral serialism, since it does not support--it ostensively does not--formal Harmony, i.e. as used since two centuries before. The nature of the first treatises on Harmony-- "do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that"--is highly questionable in this matter, since they call music only to a piece that follows all rules and directions presented. The concept of Gesamtkunstwerk, as you state it, is questionable for a similar attitude. >> There are settings, provided by large video screens, there are >> actors (four mechanical robots running a prescribed choreography), >> there is text (a few words may be more valuable than a hundred-page >> libretto), and there is music, bringing the whole to unity, etc, etc. > Yes, but elements like these are present in practically every pop > concert in these days. If these elements were enough to qualify for a > Gesamtkunstwerk, we had to call Take That or East 17 Gesamtkunstwerk > artists, simply because they sing, dance, play music, wear strange costumes > and make use of videos and a light show etc. That is not the requirement for "being a Gesamtkunstwerk." It is merely a retort to your statement of the absence of drama in Kraftwerk. And we don't call Take That or East 17 a Gesamtkunstwerk because they lack the overall concept, i.e. their evolution as artists is not conditioned by a strong idea and purpose of making music. >> imagine a Kraftwerk performance based on classical drama > the Balanescu quartet did something in that direction with their > Kraftwerk cover versions, and the result was really nice, IMHO. Yes, it is quite interesting, but you don't call it Gesamtkunstwerk, do you? >> I referred on a previous message the daily-life influence on KW's >> music. That daily-life drama, which I claimed to be transposable >> to the listener, should be clear when we hear not an aria praising >> pocket calculators but an incisive text with a minimum of words actively >> referring the exhilarating experience of interacting with the >> machine. ("I am adding, and subtracting. I'm controlling and composing.") >> It all is very personalized and individualistic, in such a way that >> the listener is not listening to a recitation of some big opus but >> participating in that experience. In this sense, words have >> similar importance as the music--they make it very objective. > No, I don't agree that the lyrics in "Pocket Calculator" are of > similar importance as the music. The lyrics could be left out and the > music would still be very objective. Subjective assertion. Which version would you like best? > The music contains the complete story, the text has only the function > to illustrate this story and to make it easier understandable. So, you say that words in Kraftwerk are redundant? Highly questionable assertion. > Imagine a live performance of "Pocket Calculator" without vocals. > You see four "operators" controlling calculator-like devices, you see > how Florian Schneider presses a special key, and then you hear a > little melody. Nothing more is the content of the lyrics, while in a > Gesamtkunstwerk the text should add something to the music, so that > the result can only be understood through listening to both the music > and the text at the same time. Again, the idea of 19th century Gesamtkunstwerk. Forget the german term and let's stick with a free translation, "global artwork." Even better, let's use something like "multiple artform artwork," since what is global now may not be tomorrow. As you see, if we use this term instead of Gesamtkunstwerk proper, all the heavy overtones vanish, and much more may be categorized this way. The constraints are purely conceptual, and derive from a pretensious designation of something that was much less than the term might suggest-- but curiously only if that term is used in german. What if a german artist achieves some kind of global art (in his opinion) in which the need for text is minimal because he can transmit the intended ideas directly, bypassing words? He would be surely tempted to call it Gesamtkunstwerk, because that's what the german word means--global art, without regard if it has text, music, action, whatever--but there would be someone who would claim that his use of the word is incorrect because Richard Wagner devised it in another way. Who is correct? One uses a simple word, another is trying to endow it with arcane meaning... Also, the importance of text is relative. There were no other means of expression to turn the art "global." The degrees of freedom were much more constricted than today, which makes, I'd say, Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerke less global than KW. Calling Kraftwerk a Gesamtkunstwerk--and I'm calling the whole concept and not a particular piece--does not mean they are so in the Wagnerian sense, and moreover, it is in perfect accord with 1. What they meant, 2. What they accomplished and 3. How they accomplished it. Most of all, it's their vision of what a multiple artform artwork should be, and I agree with them. > I've no problem to imagine an instrumental Kraftwerk concert, without > any vocals at all. On the other hand, I've very big problems to imagine a > lecture, "Ralf Huetter reads Kraftwerk poems" or something like that. Think of "The Voice of Energy/Die Stimme der Energie," or "Uranium." Good candidates for the lecture. You can't imagine a instrumental "Radio Stars/Radiosterne," can you? > Therefore I think that Kraftwerk's music dominates the lyrics. > In one of the concerts from the 1991 tour Ralf Huetters seemed to > have some problems with his microphone during "Autobahn", so they performed > this track mainly instrumental. The track *is* mainly instrumental already, so it is a bad example to start with. > In a Gesamtkunstwerk, it should be almost impossible to perform music > without the belonging text and vice versa. The keywords are *should* and *almost*. You did not say *must* and *definitely*, so I conclude you are giving some margin not to make absolute statements, which proves my point. Gesamtkunstwerk isn't an absolute term, and so can be applied with some freedom. To conclude: This whole discussion is on the issue of terminology, i.e. the usage of the term originally and its use today, adapted to the multitude of media of expression. So is it correct to call Gesamtkunstwerk to any of Wagner's works? As much correct as KW's, because what you hear and see on stage has a similar structure in both cases, the main difference being the text. Wagner uses huge--and I mean *huge*--librettos (take, for example, the whole of "Der Ring"), and Kraftwerk has a tiny amount of text. But what of the effect on the audience? One has a epic nature, the other focuses on almost trivial things. But Kraftwerk takes advantage of technology and has broader medium of expression, which makes it in a sense more complete than Wagner's conceptions. Maybe the "Gesamt" in Gesamtkunstwerk shouldn't be taken in a literal sense, as well as "global" in "global art." What is global today may not be global tomorrow, so I'd reiterate my categorization of KW--or anything else, for that matter--as Gesamtkunstwerk meaning a piece of art or concept which makes an effort in gathering a large spectrum of media of expression. And the media aren't just audiovisual ("Is a Gesamtkunstwerk more global than *true* multimedia art?"). One might elaborate on the concept of Kraftwerk, developing on their philosophy, and this should be present in anything aspiring to be a "global artwork." Maybe we should let our senses dictate what is global and what isn't, and in the end, what we perceive as "complete" or "global" is rightfully termed as "global art," no matter what connotations that might bring. Regards! - -- ********************************** Paulo Mouat - mouat@telepac.pt Theoretical Physics Dept, FCUL ********************************** ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #456 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #457 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 8 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 457 Re: Finding Bussy's Book KRAFTWERK *NOT* PLAYING LIVE UK MAY96 Re: Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Re: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Re: Finding Bussy's Book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:10:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Finding Bussy's Book Really-From: Darrell Sellers At 04:05 PM 2/6/96 EST, you wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu that >says: 'unsubscribe kraftwerk' and 'unsubscribe kraftwerk-digest' in the message >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) > > >it's available here in toronto canada at >tower records...as of today (feb 6th) >they have 5 copies. > >dave > >" i'm the operator with my coffee percolator" > > > What's the full name and is there a number I'm in San Diego (tower is down here too) I would like to buy one sellers@mail.sdsu.edu ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 96 09:18:28 EST Subject: KRAFTWERK *NOT* PLAYING LIVE UK MAY96 Really-From: Nicholas Patrick Carlisle With regard to the continuing discussion of the rumoured Kraftwerk gig in Oxford, I recirculate my email of 16/1/96: I was very disappointed to read in this week's NME that: "KRAFTWERK and BEASTIE BOYS will not be playing at the Universe/Mean Fiddler 1996 Tribal Gathering as reported in NME (January 13). Kraftwerk were approached but turned the festival down and Beastie Boys were never an option. The rest of the line-up is as announced and full details will follow." Looks like we'll have to wait some more.... Oskar. - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:41:54 ME Subject: Re: Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Really-From: "PAWEL KALINOWSKI" Hi Ian, Thanks for warm words about my 'homework'. I am sorry for the low quality of my 'English' phrases... > all the elements merge together; 'robot' is derived from the Russian word > 'rabotnik', Small correction for all rabotniks: 'robot' comes from Czech 'robotnik' - quite similar, but the difference is the origin - the word 'robot' was first used by Karel Capek in his post-golem story about mechanized robotnik. The word has got no Russian influence. Besr Regards, Pawel /for beauty we will pay/ ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:10:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: Brendan Heading >Check, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica. It is not a german >encyclopedia, but its reputation is well known. You said "all," I proved >that there exists at least one that proves your statement false, QED. > >>> mean also a combination of architecture, sculpture and painting in >>> european Baroque, for example. >> This must not necessarily be senseful. When the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" >> was "invented", it was intended to describe an idealistic *future* >> art, which makes is *very* problematic to use it for things from the >> past. >I quote from Britannica: "The vast majority of the best central >European Baroque painting outside portraiture is monumental in scale, >and the concept of the Gesamtkunstwerk--where painting, sculpture, and >architecture are combined together into a single, unified, and >harmonious ensemble--is of overwhelming importance." >>> To give an example, Debussy's "Prelude a l'apres midi d'un faune" >>> is cited as being composed in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk, and it >>> is simply a symphonic poem, i.e. doesn't have any action or stage >>> performance. >> Yes, you're right, it is a symphonic poem, composed in the spirit of >> Gesamtkunstwerk. But you will admit that "being composed in the >> spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk" is not necessarily the same as "being a >> Gesamtkunstwerk" or at least "representing the Gesamtkunstwerk idea". >How can a piece have the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk and not represent >its idea? If the piece is cited as so, how did whomever designated it >so come to that idea? As for "being a Gesamtkunstwerk," there is >nothing that is. > >>> Moreover, in a KW live performance, I think there are sufficient >>> elements to call it more than "multimedia art," >> What elements do you mean exactly? I admit that the use of robots >> could be interpreted in this way, but the robots have only a >> four-minute appearance in a two-hour-show. >There is an overall concept, dictating everything else. > >> We should also not forget that the Gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal, >> which means that in fact no piece of art is a *real* Gesamtkunstwerk. >Yes, one does a piece of art "in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk," >and try to gather a broader realm of expression. > >> the relation between music and communication in a >> Gesamtkunstwerk should be reciprocal (if we let aside that all music >> (except pure sound) is a form of communication in one way or another). >> This means that speech should also be used as a vehicle of music, and I >> can hardly recognize this in Kraftwerk songs. >Should it? As I said on a previous message, we're not discussing >Wagner's idea of Gesamtkunstwerk. We're not on the 19th century >anymore. We're analyzing something that may be interpreted today >as today's concept of Gesamtkunstwerk, whatever it means. If we >restricted ourselves to the original sense of this kind of terminology, >we should--we definitely should--consider most of 20th century music as >*not-music*, starting, say, with integral serialism, since it does not >support--it ostensively does not--formal Harmony, i.e. as used since >two centuries before. The nature of the first treatises on Harmony-- >"do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that"--is highly >questionable in this matter, since they call music only to a piece >that follows all rules and directions presented. The concept of >Gesamtkunstwerk, as you state it, is questionable for a similar >attitude. >>> There are settings, provided by large video screens, there are >>> actors (four mechanical robots running a prescribed choreography), >>> there is text (a few words may be more valuable than a hundred-page >>> libretto), and there is music, bringing the whole to unity, etc, etc. >> Yes, but elements like these are present in practically every pop >> concert in these days. If these elements were enough to qualify for a >> Gesamtkunstwerk, we had to call Take That or East 17 Gesamtkunstwerk >> artists, simply because they sing, dance, play music, wear strange costumes >> and make use of videos and a light show etc. >That is not the requirement for "being a Gesamtkunstwerk." It is >merely a retort to your statement of the absence of drama in Kraftwerk. >And we don't call Take That or East 17 a Gesamtkunstwerk because they >lack the overall concept, i.e. their evolution as artists is not >conditioned by a strong idea and purpose of making music. > >>> imagine a Kraftwerk performance based on classical drama >> the Balanescu quartet did something in that direction with their >> Kraftwerk cover versions, and the result was really nice, IMHO. >Yes, it is quite interesting, but you don't call it Gesamtkunstwerk, >do you? > >>> I referred on a previous message the daily-life influence on KW's >>> music. That daily-life drama, which I claimed to be transposable >>> to the listener, should be clear when we hear not an aria praising >>> pocket calculators but an incisive text with a minimum of words actively >>> referring the exhilarating experience of interacting with the >>> machine. ("I am adding, and subtracting. I'm controlling and composing.") >>> It all is very personalized and individualistic, in such a way that the >>> listener is not listening to a recitation of some big opus but >>> participating in that experience. In this sense, words have similar >>> importance as the music--they make it very objective. >> No, I don't agree that the lyrics in "Pocket Calculator" are of >> similar importance as the music. The lyrics could be left out and the >> music would still be very objective. >Subjective assertion. Which version would you like best? >> The music contains the complete story, the text has only the function >> to illustrate this story and to make it easier understandable. >So, you say that words in Kraftwerk are redundant? Highly questionable >assertion. >> Imagine a live performance of "Pocket Calculator" without vocals. >> You see four "operators" controlling calculator-like devices, you see >> how Florian Schneider presses a special key, and then you hear a >> little melody. Nothing more is the content of the lyrics, while in a >> Gesamtkunstwerk the text should add something to the music, so that >> the result can only be understood through listening to both the music >> and the text at the same time. >Again, the idea of 19th century Gesamtkunstwerk. >Forget the german term and let's stick with a free translation, "global >artwork." Even better, let's use something like "multiple artform >artwork," since what is global now may not be tomorrow. > As you see, if we use this term instead of Gesamtkunstwerk proper, all >the heavy overtones vanish, and much more may be categorized this way. >The constraints are purely conceptual, and derive from a pretensious >designation of something that was much less than the term might suggest-- >but curiously only if that term is used in german. > What if a german artist achieves some kind of global art (in his >opinion) in which the need for text is minimal because he can transmit >the intended ideas directly, bypassing words? > He would be surely tempted to call it Gesamtkunstwerk, because that's >what the german word means--global art, without regard if it has text, >music, action, whatever--but there would be someone who would claim that >his use of the word is incorrect because Richard Wagner devised it in >another way. Who is correct? One uses a simple word, another is >trying to endow it with arcane meaning... > Also, the importance of text is relative. There were no other means >of expression to turn the art "global." The degrees of freedom were >much more constricted than today, which makes, I'd say, Wagner's >Gesamtkunstwerke less global than KW. > Calling Kraftwerk a Gesamtkunstwerk--and I'm calling the whole >concept and not a particular piece--does not mean they are so in the >Wagnerian sense, and moreover, it is in perfect accord with 1. What >they meant, 2. What they accomplished and 3. How they accomplished it. >Most of all, it's their vision of what a multiple artform artwork >should be, and I agree with them. >> I've no problem to imagine an instrumental Kraftwerk concert, without >> any vocals at all. On the other hand, I've very big problems to imagine a >> lecture, "Ralf Huetter reads Kraftwerk poems" or something like that. >Think of "The Voice of Energy/Die Stimme der Energie," or "Uranium." >Good candidates for the lecture. You can't imagine a instrumental >"Radio Stars/Radiosterne," can you? >> Therefore I think that Kraftwerk's music dominates the lyrics. >> In one of the concerts from the 1991 tour Ralf Huetters seemed to >> have some problems with his microphone during "Autobahn", so they performed >> this track mainly instrumental. >The track *is* mainly instrumental already, so it is a bad example to >start with. >> In a Gesamtkunstwerk, it should be almost impossible to perform music >> without the belonging text and vice versa. >The keywords are *should* and *almost*. You did not say *must* and >*definitely*, so I conclude you are giving some margin not to make >absolute statements, which proves my point. Gesamtkunstwerk isn't >an absolute term, and so can be applied with some freedom. > >To conclude: >This whole discussion is on the issue of terminology, i.e. the usage >of the term originally and its use today, adapted to the multitude >of media of expression. >So is it correct to call Gesamtkunstwerk to any of Wagner's works? >As much correct as KW's, because what you hear and see on stage has >a similar structure in both cases, the main difference being the text. > Wagner uses huge--and I mean *huge*--librettos (take, for example, >the whole of "Der Ring"), and Kraftwerk has a tiny amount of text. >But what of the effect on the audience? One has a epic nature, the >other focuses on almost trivial things. But Kraftwerk takes advantage >of technology and has broader medium of expression, which makes it in >a sense more complete than Wagner's conceptions. > Maybe the "Gesamt" in Gesamtkunstwerk shouldn't be taken in a >literal sense, as well as "global" in "global art." What is global >today may not be global tomorrow, so I'd reiterate my categorization >of KW--or anything else, for that matter--as Gesamtkunstwerk meaning >a piece of art or concept which makes an effort in gathering a large >spectrum of media of expression. And the media aren't just >audiovisual ("Is a Gesamtkunstwerk more global than *true* multimedia >art?"). > One might elaborate on the concept of Kraftwerk, developing on >their philosophy, and this should be present in anything aspiring to >be a "global artwork." > Maybe we should let our senses dictate what is global and what >isn't, and in the end, what we perceive as "complete" or "global" >is rightfully termed as "global art," no matter what connotations >that might bring. >Regards! >-- >********************************** > Paulo Mouat - mouat@telepac.pt > Theoretical Physics Dept, FCUL >********************************** I think, and I believe most of us think, that KW's lyrics are an essential part of the music itself (I know this isn't the main argument, but let me say anyway). Would "Pocket Calculator" be the same without those magic words ? I don't think so. Neither would TEE, autobahn, Europe Endless or any of their songs. So there. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 22:09 EST Subject: Re: Finding Bussy's Book Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) Responding to msg by kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) on Wed, 7 Feb 0:10 AM >Really-From: Darrell Sellers > >>At 04:05 PM 2/6/96 EST, you wrote: >>Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) >> >> >>it's available here in toronto canada at >>tower records...as of today (feb 6th) >>they have 5 copies. >> >>dave >> >>" i'm the operator with my coffee percolator" >> >> >> >What's the full name and is there a number I'm in San >Diego (tower is down >here too) >I would like to buy one > >sellers@mail.sdsu.edu kraftwerk book info..... > >kraftwerk - man, machine and music -author: pascal bussy -isbn #: 0 946719 098 -saf publishing " i'm the operator with my coffee percolator" ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #457 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #458 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 8 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 458 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 1996 11:22:43 +0100 Subject: Really-From: F.Meijer@student.frw.ruu.nl (Frank Meijer) Dear Kraftwerkians, LFO, a band which is admired by Kraftwerk, has released a new album, the following up of Frequencies. On this album one song particular has a relation to Kraftwerk, because it is report of one night that the guys from LFO were visiting Kraftwerk in Dusseldorf. That night they celebrated Carneval, some kind of Helloween. Should be interesting to us, Kraftwerkians. I havent heard the song yet, but I read this in a dutch magazine, the OOR. Greetings, Frank "...1,2,3,4..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:27:44 +0100 (NFT) Subject: LFO and Kraftwerk Really-From: Klaus Zaepke > LFO, a band which is admired by Kraftwerk, has released a new album, the > following up of Frequencies. On this album one song particular has a > relation to Kraftwerk, because it is report of one night that the guys from > LFO were visiting Kraftwerk in Dusseldorf. There's also an interview with LFO in the German "New Life" magazine, February issue, longer than the beforementioned piece from the January issue, where they talk about their visit. They said that they were jamming with Kraftwerk in the Kling-Klang studio, but that this was only private, and that the result will not be released on a record. When asked whether they think that there will be a new Kraftwerk release within the next ten years, they answered: "Yes, maybe even within the next two years". Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:40:16 +0100 Subject: Really-From: vanluyke@innet.be (Van Luyken Consultants Belgium) help Emmanuel Goedseels vanluyke@innet.be ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:46:35 +1030 Subject: Re: Gloria Estefan? Really-From: ralphg@dove.mtx.net.au (Ralf Grasso) >I heard a mix of Gloria Estefan's cover of Turn The Beat around and I >_swear_ I heard a sample from Sex Object ("yes!...no!") Has anyone else >heard this? > >Ravi > > You heard right, I have too. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:30:52 -0500 Subject: Autobahn Re Issued??????????? Really-From: Nthings@aol.com will they ever re issue autobahn???? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:26:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > Check, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica. It is not a german > encyclopedia Exactly. > You said "all," I proved that there exists at least one that proves > your statement false, QED. No, I'm afraid that this E not QD. The controversial quotation from Ralf Huetter was "In Germany we call this Gesamtkunstwerk". So he referred only to the use of the term in Germany, and therefore I was only referring to German encyclopedias. > > When the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" was "invented", it was intended > > to describe an idealistic *future* art, which makes is *very* problematic to > > use it for things from the past. > > I quote from Britannica: "The vast majority of the best central > European Baroque painting outside portraiture is monumental in > scale, and the concept of the Gesamtkunstwerk--where painting, sculpture, > and architecture are combined together into a single, unified, and > harmonious ensemble--is of overwhelming importance." I keep to my opinion that it is very problematic to use terms from a certain period for things from before that period. Isn't it dubious to call Baroque paintings being in the concept of the Gesamtkunstwerk, while the Baroque artists were not aware of such a concept, because it developed not sooner than during the 18./19. century? > How can a piece have the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk and not > represent its idea? I've read a review of one of Terry Pratchett's (UK fantasy author) books, where it was written that his book had the spirit of Jonathan Swift. Couldn't this simply mean that Pratchett used some of Swift's ideas, or would you really say that the conclusion has to be: The book belongs to the same genre as the works of Swift? > There is an overall concept, dictating everything else. Could you please explain this overall concept in Kraftwerk's live-shows? I can discover a certain concept, but no one that dictates everything else. One example: Kraftwerk change sometimes the running order of their songs. They do it rarely, but they do it from time to time. If there was a *strict* concept in their show, dictating *everything* else, this should not be possible (imagine a drama where the third act is played before the second). > > We should also not forget that the Gesamtkunstwerk is an ideal, > > which means that in fact no piece of art is a *real* > > Gesamtkunstwerk. > > Yes, one does a piece of art "in the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk," > and try to gather a broader realm of expression. Exactly, but I think that an attempt to come close to the idealistic "true" Gesamtkunstwerk is also important. > > the relation between music and communication in a > > Gesamtkunstwerk should be reciprocal > > Should it? As I said on a previous message, we're not discussing > Wagner's idea of Gesamtkunstwerk. We're not on the 19th century > anymore. We're analyzing something that may be interpreted today > as today's concept of Gesamtkunstwerk, whatever it means. So we do, but Wagner was so important for the development of the term that it is almost impossible to discuss it without referring to Wagner. It would be somehow like discussing the modern meaning of Marxism while ignoring Marx. The development of a term makes only sense up to a certain point. When the point is crossed, we have no longer a modification of something known, we have something new. And when we have something new, we should name it different. > If we restricted ourselves to the original sense of this kind of > terminology, we should--we definitely should--consider most of 20th > century music as *not-music* Well, this is indeed a serious debate, with very good arguments on both sides. > The nature of the first treatises on Harmony-- > "do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that"--is highly > questionable in this matter, since they call music only to a piece > that follows all rules and directions presented. The concept of > Gesamtkunstwerk, as you state it, is questionable for a similar > attitude. It certainly is, no doubt. > > > imagine a Kraftwerk performance based on classical drama > > the Balanescu quartet did something in that direction with their > > Kraftwerk cover versions, and the result was really nice, IMHO. > > Yes, it is quite interesting, but you don't call it > Gesamtkunstwerk, do you? No. How can I call a parody Gesamtkunstwerk when I don't even call the original so? ;-) I've mentioned the Balanescu Quartet only to contradict your statement that it would be impossible to change one single element in Kraftwerk's concept without destroying the whole effect. I think that the Balanescu Quartet proved that such a thing *is* possible. > > No, I don't agree that the lyrics in "Pocket Calculator" are of > > similar importance as the music. The lyrics could be left out and > > the music would still be very objective. > > Subjective assertion. Certainly. It is as subjective as your own assertion I was contradicting. Every interpretation of music is subjective. > Which version would you like best? That's hard to say, since there are only the vocal versions available (except the instrumental version of "Tour de France"). So I'm not sure, but maybe I would indeed prefer the instrumental versions. > > The music contains the complete story, the text has only the > > function to illustrate this story and to make it easier understandable. > > So, you say that words in Kraftwerk are redundant? There are different meanings of "redundant", but if you mean "redundant" as "can be left out without destroying basic information", then I would say yes, words are redundant in many Kraftwerk songs (Ananas Symphonie, Autobahn, Trans Europe Express, Homecomputer, Pocket Calculator, Neon Lights, Musique non stop, and maybe some more). > Highly questionable assertion. Why exactly? > Forget the german term YES, YES, YES, that's what I'm saying: We should forget the German term "Gesamtkunstwerk" when we talk about Kraftwerk. > and let's stick with a free translation, "global > artwork." Even better, let's use something like "multiple artform > artwork," since what is global now may not be tomorrow. It is not possible to translate a clearly defined term freely. But this seems to be our main disagreement, that I claim that "Gesamtkunstwerk" is a clearly defined term, while you claim that it isn't. I would like to be careful with "global artwork", but I have absolutely no problems with "multiple artform artwork". (BTW: What's the difference to multimedia art?) > As you see, if we use this term instead of Gesamtkunstwerk proper, > all the heavy overtones vanish Yes, exactly, that's what I say: We shouldn't use the term "Gesamtkunstwerk". > What if a german artist achieves some kind of global art (in his > opinion) in which the need for text is minimal because he can > transmit the intended ideas directly, bypassing words? He would be surely > tempted to call it Gesamtkunstwerk, because that's what the german word > means--global art No, not exactly. You've already admitted that "global art" is only a free translation, which means that it is not an exact translation. In fact there is no exact translation of "Gesamtkunstwerk". If there was one, we wouldn't use this word in other languages. > without regard if it has text, > music, action, whatever--but there would be someone who would claim > that his use of the word is incorrect because Richard Wagner devised it > in another way. Who is correct? Probably the latter, since "Gesamtkunstwerk" is already defined in a certain sense. (And here it is again, our main disagreement...). BTW: The importance of text in comparison to music is not a question of quantity, but of quality. > > I've no problem to imagine an instrumental Kraftwerk concert, > > without any vocals at all. On the other hand, I've very big problems to > > imagine a lecture, "Ralf Huetter reads Kraftwerk poems" or something like > > that. > > Think of "The Voice of Energy/Die Stimme der Energie," or > "Uranium." > Good candidates for the lecture. Yes, but "The Voice of Energy" doesn't count, since the lyrics are not by Kraftwerk. > You can't imagine a instrumental "Radio Stars/Radiosterne," can > you? Well, I can. > > Therefore I think that Kraftwerk's music dominates the lyrics. > > In one of the concerts from the 1991 tour Ralf Huetters seemed to > > have some problems with his microphone during "Autobahn", so they > > performed this track mainly instrumental. > > The track *is* mainly instrumental already, so it is a bad example > to start with. Is it? Most of Kraftwerk's songs, with only very few exceptions, are mainly instrumental, especially in their live versions, where the music is even more dominant as on the album versions! Even "Radioactivity", where the text part is relatively large on the album, becomes a mainly instrumental piece when performed live. > Gesamtkunstwerk isn't an absolute term, and so can be applied with > some freedom. Certainly. The only question is how big the freedom can be. > This whole discussion is on the issue of terminology Yes, though I discover a "sideline-discussion" about the importance of text in Kraftwerk's songs, where we also disagree. > So is it correct to call Gesamtkunstwerk to any of Wagner's works? > As much correct as KW's, because what you hear and see on stage has > a similar structure in both cases, the main difference being the > text. Hm, plus the choreography. The only choreography in Kraftwerk's show (I would not like to count the videos as part of the choreography) is the robot's moving their arms and heads. > But Kraftwerk takes advantage of technology and has broader medium > of expression, which makes it in a sense more complete than Wagner's > conceptions. Sorry, but here I can't follow at all. Wagner *took* advantage of technology in his time, most probably more than Kraftwerk are doing today. Wagner was still avant-garde when he died, while Kraftwerk seem to have mutated into their own museum, performing basically the same show since 15 years now. > I'd reiterate my categorization > of KW--or anything else, for that matter--as Gesamtkunstwerk > meaning a piece of art or concept which makes an effort in gathering a > large spectrum of media of expression. I accept this as a description of Kraftwerk, but not as a definition of Gesamtkunstwerk. (And here it is again, our main disagreement...). Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 13:27:09 +0000 Subject: Re: Aktivitaet 7 - 'The Artwek of Kraftwerk' Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > > all the elements merge together; 'robot' is derived from the Russian word > > 'rabotnik', > > Small correction for all rabotniks: 'robot' comes from Czech > 'robotnik' - quite similar, but the difference is the origin - the > word 'robot' was first used by Karel Capek in his post-golem story > about mechanized robotnik. The word has got no Russian influence. Aha! This seems to solve the little mystery why they've changed "Rabotnik" to "Robotnik" in the 1991 version of the "Robots" video! Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:54:29 -0500 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk In the U.S.? Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com I actually had a ticket for a concert they were supposed to give at the Beacon Theater in NYC in September 1991. They cancelled a few days before the gig! I do not have to tell you my reaction. I was thinking of keeping the ticket stub as a memento rather than getting my refund, but decided against it--it was too frustrating holding the useless ticket stub in my hand, knowing I would stare at it forever after, getting upset every time I looked at it--and also knowing it would probably become a valuable collector's item (I can hear some of you groaning even now)! I'd be lying if I said I didn't have second thoughts about keeping it.... ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:59:39 -0500 Subject: Re: Again: Gesamtkunstwerk? Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com I do not feel any elation while riding the train--I ride the Long Island Rail Road! The only words adequately describing the experience are four-letter ones. Of course, calling the LIRR a "train" is almost an oxymoron--trains are comfortable, run on time, are well heated or air conditioned.... ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 15:45:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Autobahn Re Issued??????????? Really-From: Brendan Heading >will they ever re issue autobahn???? I think they are working on releasing all the old KW stuff. When I bought the computer world re-issue, it said that the record company had intentions of releasing more KW back catalog. Which is good, because, as I'm sure you'll have noticed, the AB CD sound quality is quite bad; the worst, I would say, among all the albums. (The music's still excellent, though!) "Die Fahrbahn ist ein graues Band, Weisse Streifen, gruumlner Rand" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:27:43 -0500 Subject: Re: Autobahn Re Issued??????????? Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com Listen to the original vinyl--especially the German pressings--on a good high end system! If you haven't done this, you don't know what you're missing--Kraftwerk recordings contain layers upon layers of sound, which cannot be heard on average systems. The better the system, the more there is to be heard. The frequency extension, soundstage, detail resolution, dynamics, etc. are staggering! I'm telling you--if you hear a good vinyl pressing of Computerwelt, Die Mensch Maschine, Electric Cafe or Autobahn on a good analog-based high end system, you are in for an overwhelming sonic experience! PS--I find The Mix to be an excellent-sounding CD (in general, I prefer analog to digital)--not as awesomely wide and deep in the soundstage as the aforementioned albums, but it makes up for it in bass extension, clarity of sound and dynamic range. Aside from being the masters of electronic music, Kraftwerk are also indisputibly the masters of sound as well. What I wouldn't give to attend a session at Kling Klang studios! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:13:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: ChipLamb@aol.com Lieber Fellow Kraftwerkians! Ach du lieber! Can I write a book enclosing all your arguments on this issue? Forward! Ralf would die laughing if he knew you all were carrying on in such a fashion. Then there would be no more Kraftwerk releases and none of us want that. "I saw her on the cover of a mag-a-zine...." Chippers ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 07 Feb 96 14:58:49 CET Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Really-From: marcus@karkis.canit.se (Marcus Ohlstrom) I don't know if I've understood the term Gesamtkunstwerk correct (I hadn't even heard the term before it was mentioned here), so I might be wrong... However, your are only discusing KW's liveperformances, but how about the records? If you listen to KW at home, there is no drama, it's only music and words, and as I have understood it the drama should be of the same importance as the music and the words? Still it means something, although one part of the show (the visible part) is gone, can you then call it a Gesamtkunstwerk? (I'm sorry for my poor english :) Marcus Ohlstrom (marcus@karkis.canit.se) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:23:16 -0500 Subject: COMPUTER TOUR TRADE Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i got a copy of computer tour on cd. I want to trade copys of it for other kraftwerk bootlegs. If anyone wants to make a trade e mail me. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 8 FEB 96 14:50:46 EST Subject: Update Really-From: PPilgrim@Teleglobe.CA Hi all, I've been off the list for a year, however, I am interested in any news. Can someone please update me on any significant events that happened last year? Thanks Philip Pilgrim ppilgrim@teleglobe.ca ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 06:26:54 +0100 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: Paulo Mouat >> Check, for example, Encyclopaedia Britannica. It is not a german >> encyclopedia > Exactly. >> You said "all," I proved that there exists at least one that proves >> your statement false, QED. > No, I'm afraid that this E not QD. The controversial quotation from > Ralf Huetter was "In Germany we call this Gesamtkunstwerk". So he > referred only to the use of the term in Germany, and therefore I was > only referring to German encyclopedias. Do only german encyclopedias have the right to refer the correct meaning of german terminology? Britannica isn't a german encyclopedia but they collect a huge number of articles from authors around the world--including german authors. Your argument is fragile. It would be a similar attitude if I said that what the portuguese navigators accomplished five centuries ago is "Era dos Descobrimentos" and not "Era of Discovery," and that every single article of non-portuguese origin would be utterly wrong in stating the latter instead of the former--when they mean *exactly* the same, although the former has all the particular connotations with History and the latter doesn't (could be stretched to apply to any discovery). > Isn't it dubious to call Baroque paintings being in the concept of > the Gesamtkunstwerk, while the Baroque artists were not aware of such > a concept, because it developed not sooner than during the 18./19. > century? That's the point of this discussion: Artists had already the preoccupation of mixing several forms of art, but it shouldn't be an ironclad statement to say that just because Wagner "formalized" the term by coining it in an official manner it shouldn't be used for anything else. Has Wagner created the word? Was Gesamtkunstwerk a non-existent word in the german language until Wagner's inspiration? >> How can a piece have the spirit of Gesamtkunstwerk and not >> represent its idea? > I've read a review of one of Terry Pratchett's books, where it was > written that his book had the spirit of Jonathan Swift. Couldn't this > simply mean that Pratchett used some of Swift's ideas, or would you > really say that the conclusion has to be: The book belongs to the same > genre as the works of Swift? In his book, Pratchett certainly has the spirit of Swift, which means he uses some of Swift's ideas, which in turn means he represents Swift's ideas in this particular book. Surely not a *genre* proper. >> There is an overall concept, dictating everything else. > Could you please explain this overall concept in Kraftwerk's > live-shows? The concept is not a live-show concept. The concept pertains to the band's attitude in making music, their live presentation a facet of the whole--and the whole means the idea behind the music, the design, the lyrics, ..., ultimately their live act. As I said before, it is *the* Kraftwerk concept, their philosophy. > Wagner was so important for the development of the term that it is > almost impossible to discuss it without referring to Wagner. Yes, we should refer to Wagner but we shouldn't confine ourselves to a brief period of History. Wagner has his rightfully earned place, but music and art concepts have evolved since then--much more in this century than in the whole of the previous History of western music. > It would be somehow like discussing the modern meaning of Marxism > while ignoring Marx. No, one could analyze a modern form of Marxism and embed it in an up-to-date context, realizing that the circumstances have changed, and so it would be meaningless to try to affirm that modern Marxism exists because of exactly the same defficiencies in social structures and needs--by the same token a Gesamtkunstwerk of today may have a different ground upon which to establish itself. > I've mentioned the Balanescu Quartet only to contradict your > statement that it would be impossible to change one single element in > Kraftwerk's concept without destroying the whole effect. I think that > the Balanescu Quartet proved that such a thing *is* possible. I don't agree. What you have with Balanescu Quartet is simply music for the joy of music itself. It certainly is not something that came out of years of thinking and experimentation. It is a rendition of a series of sound events with the same ordering in time, devoid of absolutely everything else. >> Which version would you like best? > That's hard to say, since there are only the vocal versions available > (except the instrumental version of "Tour de France"). So I'm not > sure, but maybe I would indeed prefer the instrumental versions. Maybe you should write a letter to Ralf or Florian saying that they could leave Emil Schult alone, that his work is worthless. What do you think of some releases of Wagner's "Der Ring" that ostensively bear the title "Ohne Worte" i.e. "Without Words?" >> So, you say that words in Kraftwerk are redundant? > There are different meanings of "redundant", but if you mean > "redundant" as "can be left out without destroying basic information", > then I would say yes, You would, I wouldn't. I guess what you see as basic information is very different from what I see. >> Highly questionable assertion. > Why exactly? Have you any experience in music composition? When you say that words are redundant in Kraftwerk, it is the same as, as in "Amadeus", Emperor Franz Joseph telling Mozart that his music had too many notes. >> Forget the german term > YES, YES, YES, that's what I'm saying: We should forget the German > term "Gesamtkunstwerk" when we talk about Kraftwerk. Only Wagner's Gesamtkunstwerk word. My use of the term has nothing to do with Wagner, only with the three little component words, "Gesamt = Total," "Kunst = Art," "Werk = work." > It is not possible to translate a clearly defined term freely. But > this seems to be our main disagreement, that I claim that > "Gesamtkunstwerk" is a clearly defined term, while you claim that it > isn't. It is only a clearly defined term if we are discussing things in a Wagnerian context. Otherwise it is an ordinary articulation of words that *can* have a meaning without regard to its other connotations. If I say "first" and "second" and consequently state that "first" occurs first relatively to "second" in this statement, does that mean that this relation obeys Eistein's Relativity Principle? Clearly there is a context that is at work here. > difference to multimedia art? (w/ "multiple artform artwork") There should be no difference, but if I would adopt your attitude in freezing the meaning of terms, I'd say that "multimedia" means, from now until the end of time, the mixing of sound and image, usually in a digital medium. If I make a presentation that has, for example, dance in addition to sound and image, I, according to your words, should name it differently, just because it deviates slightly from the original coinage of the term. >> What if a german artist achieves some kind of global art (in his >> opinion) in which the need for text is minimal because he can >> transmit the intended ideas directly, bypassing words? He would be >> surely tempted to call it Gesamtkunstwerk, because that's what the >> german word means--global art > No, not exactly. You've already admitted that "global art" is only a > free translation, which means that it is not an exact translation. What would he call it then? Please do tell me. What term would he employ to mean something that is "global art." Without forgetting that he is german, of course ;-). >>> On the other hand, I've very big problems to imagine a lecture, >>> "Ralf Huetter reads Kraftwerk poems" or something like that. >> Think of "The Voice of Energy/Die Stimme der Energie," or >> "Uranium." Good candidates for the lecture. > Yes, but "The Voice of Energy" doesn't count, since the lyrics are > not by Kraftwerk. Unimportant. The piece is clearly part of, and coherent with, the Kraftwerk concept. What I did mean was that it is conceivable to imagine a reading of Kraftwerk poems. If they wanted to do so, they would be perfectly able to do it. >> You can't imagine a instrumental "Radio Stars/Radiosterne," can >> you? > Well, I can. The piece would be reduced to a simple oscillator being modulated in frequency and a delay--you strip the words, this is the result. One can imagine everything, but surely not all of it has value, or even is in accord with the whole idea. > Most of Kraftwerk's songs, with only very few exceptions, are > mainly instrumental, especially in their live versions, where the > music is even more dominant as on the album versions! Even > "Radioactivity", where the text part is relatively large on the album, > becomes a mainly instrumental piece when performed live. Great! But the words *do* exist--and it all wouldn't be same without them... >> But Kraftwerk takes advantage of technology and has broader medium >> of expression, which makes it in a sense more complete than Wagner's >> conceptions. > Sorry, but here I can't follow at all. Wagner *took* advantage of > technology in his time, most probably more than Kraftwerk are doing > today. Wagner was still avant-garde when he died, while Kraftwerk > seem to have mutated into their own museum, performing basically the > same show since 15 years now. So what? The technology sure was different in Wagner's lifetime, and the fact that he used it "more deeply" doesn't make his art as complete as KW's--if Kraftwerk have a broader medium of expression, I guess that makes their art "more complete" than Wagner's. Wagner did what he could, but hey, sorry, the man hadn't all the resources that we have today. As for the lack of avant-gardism of Kraftwerk for the last 15 years, you surely don't mean that. Those fifteen years include "Computerwelt," which, as common comments dictate, "is the most sampled album ever," and, as you know, "Electric Cafe," which is one of the first pop records to show digitally sampled and constructed vocals and percussion timbres. That's avant-garde enough for me and for all the electro-pop music community. The long periods of silence in-between and the advent of "The Mix" are another matter, no less important, mainly concerning the upgrading of their studio, both in a technological and ease-of-use way. And I have doubts that KW's use of, and striving for, technology is less intense than Wagner's. Have you ever heard any piece of tape-music or live-electronics? This kind of piece has another dimension and scope when compared to the ordinary orchestral piece. It was this type of music that encouraged the research and development of electronic sound-producing instruments, and it represents the need of composers to break new ground, by developing new forms in music as well as timbres and timbral combinations. Kraftwerk have done a similar breaking of new ground bringing synthesizers--i.e. state-of-the-art music technology--to a more popular scene. That, in conjuction with the accomplishment of expressing a multimedia project ever since the 70s puts KW in the leading edge both in technological terms and in art concept (in a popular context, of course). If that wasn't the case they wouldn't have made a serious redesign of Kling Klang Studio and wouldn't worry about what seems to be the ultimate workstation in musical creation and production, the Synclavier. The result of the redesign is "The Mix," which is a documental view on 20 years of Kraftwerk, seen through the lens of the latest technology and functionality, the latter, by their own words, being finally attained, so much that "The Mix" was mixed live, without resorting to multitrack tape. I'd reiterate (once more) my categorization of KW--or anything else, for that matter--as Gesamtkunstwerk meaning a piece of art or concept which makes an effort in gathering a large spectrum of media of expression, that is, that tries to be global art. Best! - -- ********************************** Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************** ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #458 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #459 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Saturday, 10 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 459 Autobahn album cover sleeve Re: Rare Kraftwerk Cds for sale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 08:30:22 -0200 Subject: Autobahn album cover sleeve Really-From: Carlos@eaesp.fgvsp.br (Carlos Jose Quinteiro) ---------- De: Carlos Jose Quinteiro Para: 'Kraftwerk' Assunto: Autobahn album cover sleeve Data: Quinta-feira, 8 de Fevereiro de 1996 16:20 Dear Kraftwerkians; Tha Brazilian CD edition of Autobahn have the cover sleeve with the stylized highway in blue; the back cover shows the band in front of the keyboards, in a black & white photo; no lyrics, no more information. Anyone knows countries that have CD editions with the original German LP sleeve (color picture of a highway with cars in the front cover, photo of the band inside a car in the back cover), except the own German? Anyone knows anything about a re-issue of the album by the Cleopatra label ? =8-) Carlos José Quinteiro (-8= EAESP/FGV Brazil ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 1996 14:35:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Really-From: JON ALSBURY ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 1996 21:24:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: Rare Kraftwerk Cds for sale Really-From: bombuzal Hello Kraftwerk fans, I am offering the next Kraftwerk items for sale : - - Kraftwerk 1 + Kraftwerk 2 + Ralf @ Florian 3CD $40 - - Man-Machine recreated CD $21 - - Nippon Numbers CD $21 - - Toccata Electronica CD $21 - - Computers in love 2CD $42 - - Hyperr cerebral machine CD $19 - - rimini rimini 2CD $46 - - Enregistre live a l'olympia CD $21 - - non stop 2CD $46 - - Heute Abend 2CD $36 - - Book Man-Machine and Music BOOK $19 - - Video Stop Sellafield VHS $10 Postage is not included. Postage for each CD will be US$ 3. Please ask a detailed Kraftwerk saleslist. Contact me on bombuzal@xs4all.nl ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #459 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #460 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Sunday, 11 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 460 Re: Autobahn album cover sleeve Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Re: Re-issued Autobahn WTB: Autobahn on CD Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Gesamtkunstwerk Endless Re: Autobahn album cover sleeve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:42:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Autobahn album cover sleeve Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, I own the 1985 U.S. Elektra issue of the 'Autobahn' compact disc (9 25326-2) which contains the standard front cover illustration of the highway, cars, green hills, and blue sky. The only photo inside seems to be the one that Carlos mentioned: a black-and-white photo of the 4 members of KW standing behind their electronic consoles with their neon-lit names in the front of them, and a big backdrop or video screen of the 'Autobahn' album cover in the background behind everything. As far as I know, Cleopatra has no particular plans of re-issuing 'Autobahn'. It was mentioned here that we may soon see all the early KW albums be re-issued at some point in the not-so-distant future, but all I know of that Cleopatra has released of KW's is: 'Radio-Activity', 'Trans-Europe Express', 'The Man-Machine', 'The Capitol Years' (3 cd box set), 'The Model' (Retrospective '75-'78), and 'Showroom Dummies' (5 song cd featuring "Showroom Dummies", "Les Mannequins", 2 versions of "The Robots", and "Spacelab"). Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "The young man stepped into the hall of mirrors..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:56:46 +0000 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > However, your are only discusing KW's liveperformances, but how about the > records? If you listen to KW at home, there is no drama, it's only music and > words, and as I have understood it the drama should be of the same importance > as the music and the words? Still it means something, although one part of the > show (the visible part) is gone, can you then call it a Gesamtkunstwerk? Excellent point! No, I don't think that it should be possible in a Gesamtkunstwerk that one part of the concept (the liveperformance with all it's visual aspects) is left out and that the remaining part (the sounds on the record) is still effectful and contains the "message". > I don't know if I've understood the term Gesamtkunstwerk correct (I hadn't > even heard the term before it was mentioned here), so I might be wrong... Well, I think that you have understood it perfectly, but Paulo may disagree... Let's wait what he says... ;-) Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 10 Feb 96 10:20:42 EST Subject: Re: Re-issued Autobahn Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > will they ever re issue autobahn???? Exactly which version of 'Autobahn' are we speaking of here? Album or single edit? Which country? > I think they are working on releasing all the old KW stuff. When I bought the > computer world re-issue, it said that the record company had intentions of > releasing more KW back catalog. Which is good, because, as I'm sure you'll > have noticed, the AB CD sound quality is quite bad; the worst, I would say, > among all the albums. (The music's still excellent, though!) 'Autobahn' was 're-issued' on CD by EMI in the UK September 95. This was one of the future re-releases referred to when the first four UK EMI CD re-issues appeared in April of 95. Sadly, the copies I have seen littering the record racks locally and elsewhere are exactly the same as the earlier issue of the UK 'Autobahn' CD. The original UK CD was, IMHO, a pretty shoddy affair. Obviously filched from the German release, the UK branch of EMI even forgot to remove the German 'EMI-Electrola' logo from the packaging! There are also very few credits on the packaging and certainly no mention of Klaus Roeder and Conny Plank, both seemingly erased from the history here. For a record company that styles itself as the greatest in the world, a bit more effort/budget could have been steered in the direction of this and other KW re-issues. That the company, given the opportunity to tidy up the packaging and correct mistakes/omissions with this re-issue series, can't even do this for the artwork leaves us in little doubt that the same lack of effort applies for the sound quality, though I have not bought one of these disks to actually check, I concede. I reckon that these 're-issues' are just the same copies as before. Sadly, for fans of the earlier releases, I think that the re-issue series is now at an end in the UK, which means there will be no 'Kraftwerk', 'Kraftwerk 2' or 'Ralf and Florian'; every indication suggests that the three CD's re-issued in September of 95 ('Autobahn', 'TEE' and 'Electric Cafe') complete the set that EMI were re-issuing. ('Computer World', 'Radio-Activity', 'The Man Machine' and 'The Mix' re-issued earlier, in April 95). I wrote to EMI some time ago on behalf of Aktivitaet to ask; a) whether they could confirm the legality of the Germanofon CD releases of 'KW', 'KW 2' and 'R&F'. b) whether they themselves would include these three releases in their ongoing 're-issue' programme. As yet, no reply! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 10:30:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: Autobahn on CD Really-From: Nthings@aol.com if anyone will sell autobahn let me know ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 20:00:52 +0100 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: Paulo Mouat In this message, the >> text is from Marcus Ohlstrom, the > text is from (who else?) Klaus Zaepke :-) >> However, your are only discusing KW's liveperformances, but how >> about the records? If you listen to KW at home, there is no drama, >> it's only music and words, and as I have understood it the drama >> should be of the same importance as the music and the words? Still it >> means something, although one part of the show (the visible part) is >> gone, can you then call it a Gesamtkunstwerk? > Excellent point! No, I don't think that it should be possible in a > Gesamtkunstwerk that one part of the concept (the liveperformance with > all it's visual aspects) is left out and that the remaining part (the > sounds on the record) is still effectful and contains the "message". >> I don't know if I've understood the term Gesamtkunstwerk correct (I >> hadn't even heard the term before it was mentioned here), so I might >> be wrong... > Well, I think that you have understood it perfectly, but Paulo may > disagree... Let's wait what he says... ;-) Let's do, if I may, a little backtracking. As with all passionate subjects, this one is prone to give birth, and indeed has given, to a series of parallel discussions. I recall that all this was caused by a quote from Ralf Hu"tter, "We make music, but we do not meet or talk with other musicians: We have friends that are scientists, Ph Ds... We're more interested in computer graphics and graphic design... In Germany, we call that Gesamtkunstwerk." As you see, it had nothing to do with live performances, this topic being brought only through the discussion of drama. My point in all of this is that creation and materialization of a concept (in light of certain preoccupations and purposes) may be regarded as Global Art, or Gesamtkunstwerk (the word should be Gesamtkunst, since Gesamtkunstwerk refers to an explicitly created artwork). And this does not negate Wagner's idea, it is just another kind of way of expressing the same goals--hence my saying that Gesamtkunstwerk should be regarded in an up-to-date context, leaving all specifics of Wagner's original conception to Wagner's works. All other topics in this discussion originated from ulterior statements which caused some disagreement. One of such follows :-) : "A record may be ellectful because--in Kraftwerk, at least--they all contain the *message*." Best! - -- ***************************** Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ***************************** ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:56:01 +0000 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Endless Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > Do only german encyclopedias have the right to refer the correct > meaning of german terminology? No, but I said only something about *German* ones, so it requires more than a simple quote from a *British* one to contradict me. But this part of the discussion has no connection to Kraftwerk, so I think that we should end it now. > Has Wagner created the word? No. I'm quite sure that he has not even used it. Im not an expert, but I believe that the term was somehow "invented" and defined by Hans von Wolzogen, one of Wagners friends, to describe his "masters" work. And if it's true that the term was defined by Hans von Wolzogen, I would say that he "owns" something like a copyright, so that others should be careful with using the term in a different way. > Was Gesamtkunstwerk a non-existent word in the german language until > Wagner's inspiration? Probably yes. At least in music theory, and at least as a terminus technicus. I think we should make a difference between "word" and "term". When I'm speaking of the Gesamtkunstwerk, I'm speaking of it as a musical term. > The concept pertains to the band's attitude in making music, their live > presentation a facet of the whole--and the whole means the idea behind > the music, the design, the lyrics, ..., ultimately their live act. And what would you say to Marcus Ohlstrom's argument that the live aspect is not present on a record, and that the concept works nonetheless? You've previously claimed that it wouldn't be possible to omit single parts of the whole concept without destroying it. Is this not contradicted by the fact that they release their songs on records, where the visual aspects are not present (or, to be more precise: are only present via the album covers)? > What you have with Balanescu Quartet is simply music > for the joy of music itself. It is a rendition of a series of sound events with > the same ordering in time, devoid of absolutely everything else. Well, I think that much of the original "spirit" of the songs is still present in Balanescu's cover versions. This is of course only my personal opinion, but others seem to think the same. After all, the Balanescu Quartet was invited to perform their "Kraftwerk concert" at the ARS ELECTRONICA festival, which wouldn't make much sense if these covers were really *only* "music for the joy of music itself". > Maybe you should write a letter to Ralf or Florian saying that they > could leave Emil Schult alone. This will not be necessary. They already did this thirteen years ago... ;-) > What do you think of some releases of Wagner's "Der Ring" that > ostensively bear the title "Ohne Worte" i.e. "Without Words?" Well, we both agree that the "Gesamtkunstwerk" is only an ideal, not even reached by Wagner. What you mention is indeed the main criticism against Wagner: that he came close to the Gesamtkunstwerk idea by reaching a level where music and speech formed *almost* a unity. But in the end, he failed. His music is so dominant in certain parts that the words can be left out, and the result is still impressive enough to survive on it's own. > When you say that words > are redundant in Kraftwerk, it is the same as, as in "Amadeus", Emperor > Franz Joseph telling Mozart that his music had too many notes. I don't know this film, but I would guess that we have different ideas of the meaning of the term "redundant". Could we just let this point open? I would not like to start yet another debate on terminology ;-) > My use of the term has nothing to > do with Wagner, only with the three little component words, > "Gesamt = Total," "Kunst = Art," "Werk = work." I know, but sometimes a term is occupied with a certain meaning, which makes it problematic to use it in a different context. "Communism" is such an example. Literally, it means something like "living together", so if we take the term literal, it would be correct to say that marriage is a form of Communism, since it is a form of living together. But this would be misleading, since the term is already occupied with the marxistic meaning. And I think that "Gesamtkunstwerk" is also one of these terms. > your attitude in freezing the meaning of terms I'm not freezing the meaning of all terms, I just think that it makes good sense to freeze the meaning of these terms with a clear and commonly accepted definition. When Hans von Wolzogen wrote about Wagner, his use of the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" was commonly accepted, so I think that the meaning of this term is now somehow frozen, maybe not frozen to ice, but at least frozen to snow. I don't believe that there is such a commonly accepted definition of "multimedia", so I think that this term is more open than the term "Gesamtkunstwerk". > >> What if a german artist achieves some kind of global art (in his > >> opinion) in which the need for text is minimal because he can > >> transmit the intended ideas directly, bypassing words? He would be > >> surely tempted to call it Gesamtkunstwerk, because that's what the > >> german word means--global art > > No, not exactly. You've already admitted that "global art" is only a > > free translation, which means that it is not an exact translation. > > What would he call it then? Please do tell me. What term would he > employ to mean something that is "global art." Without forgetting that > he is german, of course ;-). Well, what about "Multimedia-Kunst"? Or anything else which means literally the same, but is not already associated with a different meaning. > > Most of Kraftwerk's songs are mainly instrumental. > > Great! But the words *do* exist--and it all wouldn't be same without > them... Of course, but this is the case with every song that contains lyrics. A Take That song would also change if the vocals were left out. The question is not whether there is a change, but how important it is. > The technology sure was different in Wagner's lifetime, and > the fact that he used it "more deeply" doesn't make his art as complete > as KW's--if Kraftwerk have a broader medium of expression, I guess that > makes their art "more complete" than Wagner's. But while Wagner used practically all the standard West European instruments in his music, Kraftwerk have limited themselves to the use of electronic instruments and to mainly one single idea: the "Man Machine". I wouldn't call this a particular broad medium of expression. > As for the lack of avant-gardism of Kraftwerk for the last 15 years, > you surely don't mean that. Those fifteen years include "Computerwelt," Yes, okay, I was meaning the period *after* "Computerwelt", and you are perfectly right, these are not fifteen years, these are only fourteen years, ten months and two weeks. I'm so sorry for my inaccuracy! > and, as you know, "Electric Cafe," Hm, is this album really "avant-garde"? Okay, maybe because of it's sound, but rather not because of it's concept and musical style, since it was nothing but the well-known Kraftwerk concept and style, which may have been avant-garde in the seventies, but rather not in the middle-eighties. > The long periods of silence in-between and the advent of > "The Mix" are another matter, no less important, mainly concerning the > upgrading of their studio, both in a technological and ease-of-use way. Do you really believe that the upgrading of their studio is the main reason for the long periods of silence, only because Ralf Huetter claims this in his interviews? I'm sorry, but I think that it is evident that this is a lie. In an ease-of-use-way, they did *no* upgrading at all since 1981. In a technological way, there are current updates, okay, but this cannot be an important reason. The changes in their equipment were minimal between 1991 and 1993. It is *one* reason, no doubt, but it is obviously a minor one. > they wouldn't have made a serious redesign of Kling Klang Studio They did the latest *serious* redesign of the Kling Klang Studio in 1981, fifteen years ago... > and wouldn't worry about what seems to be the ultimate workstation in > musical creation and production, the Synclavier. Karl Bartos would probably disagree. He says that one of the most important reasons why he left Kraftwerk was their use of the Synclavier. He said that he finds the Synclavier too limiting, it would destroy creativity. And he said that this lack of creativity was one of the main reasons for the long periods between the Kraftwerk releases, not the studio updates. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 23:43:10 -0500 Subject: Re: Autobahn album cover sleeve Really-From: ChipLamb@aol.com Fellow Kraftwerkern: Respectfully may I submit after checking that Cleopatra Records, as a subsidiary of Capitol Records (Special Music division), would not have the rights to distribute the 1985 Autobahn CD, Computer World, or Electric Cafe in the US as these are Elektra (Warner Bros.) Labels. Perhaps someone knows something about corporate buyouts that I do not, but my guess is that I am right here. "I don't want to be...your (Gloria Estefan) sex object..." (no, really!) Your pal Chip ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #460 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #461 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Monday, 12 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 461 organisation - tone float...comments ? Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 96 15:31 EST Subject: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) does anyone have the tone float cd ? if so , what do you think ? i finally got it on friday and it doesn't seem to be one of the germanofon boots... unlike the other boots (kw1, kw2, r+f) , the vinyl surface noise is very apparent... but it has bonus tracks which is kinda cool.. dave " i'm the operator with my coffee percolator " ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 18:01:43 -0500 Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com Where in god's name did you find tone float??? i must have it....please give some information. who issued it?? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 19:28:46 -0500 Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: Curryous@aol.com It's a Germanophon CD. It has a bonus track of (apparently) early KW doing a track for some TV show (not Truckstop Gondolaro). It's from an LP source. I know it's historically interesting but it's pretty boring!! Russ Curry ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 11 Feb 96 12:46:46 CET Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk ad nauseam Really-From: marcus@karkis.canit.se (Marcus Ohlstrom) Paulo Mouat wrote: kcu> Let's do, if I may, a little backtracking. As with all passionate kcu> subjects, this one is prone to give birth, and indeed has given, to a kcu> series of parallel discussions. kcu> I recall that all this was caused by a quote from Ralf Hu"tter, "We kcu> make music, but we do not meet or talk with other musicians: We have kcu> friends that are scientists, Ph Ds... We're more interested in kcu> computer graphics and graphic design... In Germany, we call that kcu> Gesamtkunstwerk." kcu> As you see, it had nothing to do with live performances, this topic kcu> being brought only through the discussion of drama. The question is if drama is a _necessary_ part of a Gesamtkunstwerk? If it is, could we then call KW's art a Gesamtkunstwerk? If it's not, forget my point and continue your discussion...:) Marcus Ohlstrom (marcus@karkis.canit.se) ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #461 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #462 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Tuesday, 13 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 462 Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Re: Rare Kraftwerk Cds for sale Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Quality of "Werke" bootleg Re: WTB: Autobahn on CD Re: WTB: Autobahn on CD Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Crosstalk 10" promo Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Re: Crosstalk 10" promo KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Re: Quality of "Werke" bootleg ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 09:59:45 EST Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: Nicholas Patrick Carlisle I have the Tonefloat CD- I would say that anyone who likes the first 2 Kraftwerk albums should try and track down a copy of this bootleg, especially for the magnificent bonus 1971 Kraftwerk track 'Vor Dem Blauen Bock',which was recorded for use as the Beat Club TV theme. The main bulk of the album is percussive, although Ralph and Florian provide some organ and flute respectively. I think the album is definately worth hearing- to me it's more than just historically interesting! Nick ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 96 10:08:51 EST Subject: Re: Rare Kraftwerk Cds for sale Really-From: Nicholas Patrick Carlisle Are these the editions of KW1 & 2 that contain bonus tracks? If so, what are these tracks? Nick ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:04:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: JON ALSBURY Hello everyone, I too have seen this CD knocking about in record stores around London, though I havn't lashed out and bought it (yet). I was very impressed by the sound quality of the KW 1 + 2 / R & F bootleg CDs - how does Tone Float compare? You can hear a little needle noise on these if you listen closely, but it doesn't spoil the enjoyment of the music (although my hi-fi is not exactly state-of-the-art). Also, i've been told the style of music on Tone Float is radically different from anything else R & F have produced sort, have to go - a fir ealarm (yes really!) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:40:53 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: tby@ts.umu.se (Tomas Bystrom) > Really-From: Curryous@aol.com > It's a Germanophon CD. = There is also a non-Germanophon boot-rerelease of that one too, the = record number of that one is "WERK04". I guess it's in the same series as= = the non-Germanophon 1,2 and R&F. /Tomas * Real hackers(tm) don't use sigs, so here's my sig! * * Tomas Bystrom (tby@ts.umu.se) LingonKep @ IRC * * Snail: Stipendiegrand 12A-106, 907 35 UMEA * * Never trust a smiling pike! Live Long And Prosper! * ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:56:44 +0000 Subject: Quality of "Werke" bootleg Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de Some people asked me for more information about the sound quality of the "Werke" bootleg I mentioned last week, so I think it's the easiest if I simply answer the question here on the list: The sound is good in general, not perfect, but good. But the tracks were mastered from vinyl, and that's audible. I would like to divide the tracks into three categories: 1. Tracks with practically no surface noise, an alternative even for people who already have mint vinyl. - Tour de France (German 12" version, 6:44") - Der Telefon Anruf (12" version, 8:12") - Musique non stop (12" version, 6:15") - Sex Object (Spanish version, 6:48") - Radioactivity (William Orbit Hardcore Mix, 6:20") - Tour de France (Remix, 6:47") - Mini Calculateur (12" version, 5:00") 2. Tracks with little suface noise, not too bothersome. Maybe an alternative for "everyday use". - Dentaku (12" version, 4:54") - Showroom Dummies (1977 single edit, 2:38") - Housephone (4:54") 3. Tracks with some surface noise, not too bad, but probably only an alternative for people who want to hear the tracks without spending a fortune for the originals. - Autobahn ("US chart single version", 3:35") - Kohoutek (4:05") - Autobahn (1981 reissue version, 3:08") Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:45:32 +0100 Subject: Re: WTB: Autobahn on CD Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >if anyone will sell autobahn let me know I have the CD but i live in Sweden, so maybe you can find it somewhere closer? If not, what's your bid? Jan Sundstrom "Ring a ding ding dong, I'm going down" (Stone Roses - 'Going Down') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:46:15 +0100 Subject: Re: WTB: Autobahn on CD Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) Sorry, the last one wasn't meant to the list. Please ignore it! Jan Sundstrom "Ring a ding ding dong, I'm going down" (Stone Roses - 'Going Down') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:23:10 +0000 Subject: Re: organisation - tone float...comments ? Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > It's a Germanophon CD. > > There is also a non-Germanophon boot-rerelease of that one too, the > record number of that one is "WERK04". I know the latter, but is there really a Germanofon "Tone Float"? I know that Germanofon has bootlegged the first three Kraftwerk CD's, but "Tone Float" is not in the Germanofon catalogue, and Germanofon CD's have normally no bonus tracks. Sure that the Germanofon one exists? Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:45:44 -0500 Subject: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: Adam J Weitzman I happened across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this weekend. It has "Crosstalk" on the A side and a very good remix titled "Intercomix" on the B. (I'll have to check the A again, but I think it's slightly longer than the album version.) The labels just have "A" and "B" stamped on them, but the inner sleeve has a sticker that lists the contents of the platter, and the outside sleeve has a purple tower stamped on it with "Elektric Music Crosstalk" stamped on that in red. Does anyone know what the relative rarity of this might be? Thanks for any info. - -- Adam J Weitzman ----- Individual, Inc. ----- weitzman@individual.com "I love the music of the 20th century!" - Bruce Willis, "12 Monkeys" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 19:48:30 +0100 Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >I happened across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this weekend. >Does anyone know what the relative rarity of this might be? It's _RARE_!!! I bought mine in London at UKP20 (=$30) but that was a real bargain, i've been offered up to UKP90 ($140) for it since. I believe less than 100 copies were made of this. Ian Calder might have the exact numbers?! Jan Sundstrom "Will it ever be repeated? Will it follow anywhere? Will we spend that time reflecting? Are we old enough to care?" (Popsicle - 'Sunkissed') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:23:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: Lazlo Nibble >> I happened across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this weekend. >> Does anyone know what the relative rarity of this might be? > > It's _RARE_!!! I bought mine in London at UKP20 (=$30) but that was a > real bargain, i've been offered up to UKP90 ($140) for it since. > > I believe less than 100 copies were made of this. Surely it's not *that* rare; between the three of us there are already four known copies! (I have two.) - -- ::: Lazlo (lazlo@swcp.com; http://www.swcp.com/lazlo) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 23:13:33 +0100 Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >> I believe less than 100 copies were made of this. > >Surely it's not *that* rare; between the three of us there are already four >known copies! (I have two.) OK, but then we are _real_ fans! I don't know about the number, but the price i'm referring to is what it fetches over here... I've only ever seen it once (my copy), and i know a lot of persons collecting KW/EM. Jan Sundstrom "Will it ever be repeated? Will it follow anywhere? Will we spend that time reflecting? Are we old enough to care?" (Popsicle - 'Sunkissed') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 17:49:17 -0500 Subject: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Really-From: Nthings@aol.com someone said that KW had long hair and beards at one point is this true? (i hope not) "why do people put dumb qoutes at the end of E- mail?" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:39:08 -0500 Subject: Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Really-From: ChipLamb@aol.com NThings and the rest of the loyal KW flunkies: First, I think I know but feel free to comment if y'all have something different to say. Before KW was its renowned self, Ralf und Florian were free-form jazz artists. Then, perhaps they (not Karl or Wolfgang) had such a mockup of long hair and beards. Whata would one expect? Secondly, and this is directed solely at the last fellow, Mr Mysterious "NThings", those quotes (excepting our Swedish friend Jan who should be brought about soundly) are Kraftwerk well-known clips from their excellent work. Try it yourself. I mean no offense; why should I?-but 'stupid quotes' seems to target those of us who embellish our points with a bit of KW humour. If you don't understand, my friend, load up your CD player and relax to the strains of Mann Maschine or Computerwelt and perhaps the importance of familiarity will come through. "I call this nunber, call this number..." All the best to all of you! Chip ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 21:17:53 -0600 Subject: Re: Quality of "Werke" bootleg Really-From: Phil Lefkowitz I am interested. What is the price? At 01:56 PM 2/12/96 +0000, you wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu that >says: 'unsubscribe kraftwerk' and 'unsubscribe kraftwerk-digest' in the message >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > > >Some people asked me for more information about the sound quality of the >"Werke" bootleg I mentioned last week, so I think it's the easiest if I simply >answer the question here on the list: > >The sound is good in general, not perfect, but good. But the tracks >were mastered from vinyl, and that's audible. > >I would like to divide the tracks into three categories: > >1. Tracks with practically no surface noise, an alternative even for people who > already have mint vinyl. > - Tour de France (German 12" version, 6:44") > - Der Telefon Anruf (12" version, 8:12") > - Musique non stop (12" version, 6:15") > - Sex Object (Spanish version, 6:48") > - Radioactivity (William Orbit Hardcore Mix, 6:20") > - Tour de France (Remix, 6:47") > - Mini Calculateur (12" version, 5:00") > >2. Tracks with little suface noise, not too bothersome. Maybe an alternative > for "everyday use". > - Dentaku (12" version, 4:54") > - Showroom Dummies (1977 single edit, 2:38") > - Housephone (4:54") > >3. Tracks with some surface noise, not too bad, but probably only an > alternative for people who want to hear the tracks without spending a fortune > for the originals. > - Autobahn ("US chart single version", 3:35") > - Kohoutek (4:05") > - Autobahn (1981 reissue version, 3:08") > >Klaus Zaepke > > ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #462 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #463 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Wednesday, 14 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 463 Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR??????? Re: Crosstalk 10" Promo Price of "Werke" bootleg I WANT TO TRADE BOOTLEG COPYS 'Our Friends Electric' 'Crosstalk' promo 10" Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Are 'Friends' Electric? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:55:27 -0300 Subject: Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR??????? Really-From: Carlos@eaesp.fgvsp.br (Carlos Jose Quinteiro) Dear Nthings: I can't understand your surprise to know that, some time ago, Ralf & Florian had long hair and beard. Where were you at the 70s? More: I know a lot of Kraftwerkians, with various looks, and some of them have long hair and beard (myself included!!) In oposition of the song, we are NOT robots!!!!!! ---------- someone said that KW had long hair and beards at one point is this true? (i hope not) =8-) Carlos José Quinteiro (-8= EAESP/FGV Brazil ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:57:21 +0000 Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" Promo Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de >Really-From: Adam J Weitzman > I hapenned across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this > weekend. It has "Crosstalk" on the A side and a very good remix titled >"Intercomix" on the B. (I'll have to check the A again, but I think it's > slightly longer than the album version.) Are you sure that the 10" version is longer? >Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) > It's _RARE_!!! . I believe less than 100 copies were made of this. I've once seen an advert for Elektric Music collector's items. Among these items were the "Crosstalk" and "TV" 10" singles. They were offered for a certain price (quite expensive!), but there was also a discount price for people who ordered more than 5 or so copies at the same time. This doesn't sound like it is a mega-rarity. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:57:20 +0000 Subject: Price of "Werke" bootleg Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > I am interested. What is the price? I've spotted it at a record fair in Germany for DM 30,00 (ca. US $ 23,00), which seems to be the usual price for bootlegs at the moment. Sorry, but I don't know an address where this CD can be bought / ordered. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:04:19 -0500 Subject: I WANT TO TRADE BOOTLEG COPYS Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i have a copy of computertor anyone want to trade tape copys of boots? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 15:54:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 'Our Friends Electric' Really-From: Kevin Busby Maybe of slight interest: a new compilation of 80's electronic pop hits includes 'The Model'. 'Our Friends Electric' (sic), double CD (TCD2814) or double cassette (STA2814), on Telstar Records of the UK. Kevin ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 13 Feb 96 14:34:45 EST Subject: 'Crosstalk' promo 10" Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> Here's some info on Elektric Music's 10" promo of 'Crosstalk', from 'Record Collector' magazine, October 1993; '...it comes as a surprise when you learn that promo's of one LP track, 'Crosstalk', were pressed up several months ago and distributed amongst German and US DJ's on that dusty old 10" format. "It's a good format", says Lothar (Manteuffel). "What would you do if you were sent a load of 12"s and then a 10" arrived?" Well, put it on the front of the pile, of course. Karl Bartos...quickly remembers which magazine he's talking to and smiles widely as he leans forward with some gentlemanly advice: "The 'Crosstalk' 10" is already a collectors item, you know. It's too expensive, you can't buy it." Handstamped labels, 'n'all.' Not a lot else I can add about this item that hasn't already been described, but the figure that I put in the Aktivitaet 'Elektric Music Special' mini-issue was that the 10" was a limited edition of 250 copies, this figure came from Elektric Music themselves. It's on SPV records and it's official cataloguue number is 050-110365. That it seems to have been targeted at US and German DJ's indicates that it may well be worth scouring 'bargain bins' at record fairs for a copy, you know, one man's promo rarity is another's giveaway item. The latest list I have received from Esprit mail order (a week or two back) lists a copy of this 10" for sale - at a mere 125 UK pounds! There is also a similar promo 10" in hand-stamped sleeves for 'TV', again this was distributed in the US and I've seen at least one dance chart it was included in, referred to as 'TV 404', presumably becuase of the somgs length? There wasn't, as far as I'm aware, a German promo 10" for 'Lifestyle', but there *was* a UK one, but this came in a properly printed sleeve, not so much of the 'personal touch' to it! The only one of these items that I actually have is this last UK 10", which I came by for 5 UK pounds some time back. I imagine this is the least rare of the three 10"s available. The 'TV' one seems to be as scarce, if not more so that the 'Crosstalk' one. Ian Calder. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:26:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: KRAFTWERK LONG WITH LONG HAIR???????????? Really-From: JON ALSBURY Yep, it's true! btw, appologies to all over my hurried signoff last time, i should have jsut trashed that message but in my haste i hit post instead. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:18:14 -0500 Subject: Are 'Friends' Electric? Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com I think this is what you may mean? Gary Numan? ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #463 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #464 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 15 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 464 Re: Are 'Friends' Electric? Re: promo 10" and memorabilia Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Are 'Friends' Electric? Really-From: Kevin Busby > Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com > > I think this is what you may mean? Gary Numan? Not at all! The title of the compilation _is_ 'Our Friends Electric'; it's a pun. However, as you might expect, the Tubeway Army song 'Are "Friends" Electric?' is included. Kevin ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:03:51 +0100 Subject: Re: promo 10" and memorabilia Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >There wasn't, as far as I'm aware, a German promo 10" for 'Lifestyle', >but there *was* a UK one, but this came in a properly printed sleeve, >The only one of these items that I actually have is this last UK 10", >which I came by for 5 UK pounds some time back. I imagine this is the >least rare of the three 10"s available. Lifestyle promo 10" was actually sold by the band themselves (!) at the concert in Stockholm (may 94). You could also buy different formats of TV (incl the 7"), but not the TV 10". Anyway these records sold out _very_ fast, as you can imagine! I think they also sold the "TV" wristwatch there, with the motive on the "plate". I also got some TV stickers, that i got from Paul Wilkinson, who recieved them straight from the band. That's about it... Jan Sundstrom "I'm not running from myself Won't you tell me who I am Can you get me anywhere" (Popsicle - 'Soft') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:55:49 +0100 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Really-From: Paulo Mouat > I believe that the term was somehow "invented" and defined by Hans von > Wolzogen, one of Wagners friends, to describe his "masters" work. And > if it's true that the term was defined by Hans von Wolzogen, I would > say that he "owns" something like a copyright, so that others should > be careful with using the term in a different way. >> Was Gesamtkunstwerk a non-existent word in the german language until >> Wagner's inspiration? > Probably yes. At least in music theory, and at least as a terminus > technicus. I think we should make a difference between "word" and > "term". When I'm speaking of the Gesamtkunstwerk, I'm speaking of it > as a musical term. The "terminus technicus" character does not prevent a term from being interpreted and reinterpreted in light of generalizations and updates of its original meaning--even if it had the most specific usage. One example is "Twelve-tone music." This term was coined by Rene Leibowitz to ascertain the music of Scho"nberg and his disciples--the (2nd) Viennese School--and was intended only in this specific sense. Well, today it has a slightly different meaning because you can find all the characteristics of "twelve-tone music" in pieces that are previous to Scho"nberg (!), in composers such as Liszt and Richard Strauss. Other terms have evolved to correct the misfortune of the term being too general (stretching its meaning, it even is widely accepted that *all* western tonal music of the 18th and 19th centuries may be described as "twelve-tone music"). My interpretation of Gesamtkunstwerk, and I think it is Ralf's too (which, BTW, I don't think is incorrect), is that Gesamtkunstwerk could be, and should be, reinterpreted--and it is the most natural thing, since one's thoughts of globalness in art are bound to evolve as fast as the means of expressing art evolve. As in the case of the music of the Viennese School, which was termed "atonal" and afterwards as "serial" in replacement of its original designation, maybe it is Wagner's music which should be termed differently, freeing such a general designation as "global/total artwork" (or one should clearly state the context in which the term is being used, and that does not prevent its use in other contexts). The credit of Hans von Wolzogen is as great as Rene Leibowitz's in trying to "formalize" or "officialize" a specific type of work of art endowing it with a term for posterity--one that clearly identifies the work and trend in the future--but both are constricting in an unnatural way the intuitive meaning of words--that's why the latter's term was changed. >> The concept pertains to the band's attitude in making music, their >> live presentation a facet of the whole--and the whole means the idea >> behind the music, the design, the lyrics, ..., ultimately their live >> act. > And what would you say to Marcus Ohlstrom's argument that the live > aspect is not present on a record, and that the concept works > nonetheless? You've previously claimed that it wouldn't be possible > to omit single parts of the whole concept without destroying it. Is > this not contradicted by the fact that they release their songs on > records, where the visual aspects are not present (or, to be more > precise: are only present via the album covers)? I never referred to the live performances of Kraftwerk as part of my idea of KW being a Gesamtkunstwerk. Please note that I say "KW is a Gesamtkunstwerk" and not, for instance, "Autobahn" is Gesamtkunstwerk. Maybe this time you'll understand my point. The *whole* concept of Kraftwerk may be regarded as a Gesamtkunstwerk (or, using my own coinage from a previous message, KW delve in Gesamtkunst). > Well, I think that much of the original "spirit" of the songs is still > present in Balanescu's cover versions. This is of course only my > personal opinion, but others seem to think the same. After all, the > Balanescu Quartet was invited to perform their "Kraftwerk concert" at > the ARS ELECTRONICA festival, which wouldn't make much sense if these > covers were really *only* "music for the joy of music itself". I don't see the purpose of ARS ELECTRONICA as beyond "music for the joy of music itself." Is it a conference of the world-renowned composers of electronic music, or is it a festival with "commercial" musicians and composers? >> My use of the term has nothing to >> do with Wagner, only with the three little component words, >> "Gesamt = Total," "Kunst = Art," "Werk = work." > I know, but sometimes a term is occupied with a certain meaning, > which makes it problematic to use it in a different context. That's why terms evolve and contexts shift. >> What term would he employ to mean something that is "global art." >> Without forgetting that he is german, of course ;-). > Well, what about "Multimedia-Kunst"? Or anything else which means > literally the same, but is not already associated with a different > meaning. But "Multimedia-Kunst" does not capture the essence of the idea he wants to transmit. The idea is precise: "Global Art." > But while Wagner used practically all the standard West European > instruments in his music, Kraftwerk have limited themselves to the > use of electronic instruments and to mainly one single idea: the "Man > Machine". I wouldn't call this a particular broad medium of > expression. "Kraftwerk have *limited* themselves to the use of electronic instruments" sounds a bit ironic. Everyone knows that the advent of electronics in music meant two things: Construct timbres non-existent in the current instrumentarium, and reproduce *every* existent timbre with arbitrary precision (obviously this last assertion was more like a postulate, but it proves as much true as technology advances). If there is a "broad medium of expression," the electronics suggest it, and, IMHO (not so humble) 20th century music is here to prove it (and I don't mean Take That, Electronic, and alike--I mean Cage, Stockhausen, Xenakis, etc, etc). Regarding the idea of "The Man Machine," this is a proficient concept and a rather broad medium of otherwise it wouldn't be in the origin of some literature of the past (Kraftwerk did not create this idea), and was even compared (KW's rendition) to Nietzsche's idea of "Superman." >> and, as you know, "Electric Cafe," > Hm, is this album really "avant-garde"? Okay, maybe because of it's > sound, but rather not because of it's concept and musical style, since > it was nothing but the well-known Kraftwerk concept and style, which > may have been avant-garde in the seventies, but rather not in the > middle-eighties. In the seventies there were no rhythms made solely from pieces of articulated words, made possible by the use of digital samplers. Regarding concept and style, using your arguments, I could say that Wagner ceased to be avant-garde from the moment he composed his (first) masterworks, since I don't think that his style has changed (much) throughout his life. > Do you really believe that the upgrading of their studio is the main > reason for the long periods of silence, only because Ralf Huetter > claims this in his interviews? I'm sorry, but I think that it is > evident that this is a lie. As I said previously, every piece from KW and ultimately every album appears only after long periods of experimentation and exploration. I believe they will always try to outdo themselves, keeping (or trying to keep) an edge in respect to music style and usage of technology. I'm well aware of the short spans between some of the albums, for instance between The Man Machine and TEE, but that could be regarded as a summation result from previous explorations, material that couldn't fit either in only one album or wasn't coherent with the overall theme of the album. > In an ease-of-use-way, they did *no* upgrading at all since 1981. Since 1981 everything in music technology changed with the vulgarization of *personal computers*--they might have had the curiosity to operate a personal computer, but never, never, would have used it in a musical sense--music software didn't exist, as simple as that. Since they currently use ordinary PCs and Macs running ordinary software, that seems ease-of-use enough. > In a technological way, there are current updates, okay, but this > cannot be an important reason. The changes in their equipment were > minimal between 1991 and 1993. It is *one* reason, no doubt, but it > is obviously a minor one. We are discussing a 15-year period, not a 3-year one. >> they wouldn't have made a serious redesign of Kling Klang Studio > They did the latest *serious* redesign of the Kling Klang Studio in > 1981, fifteen years ago... I surely don't mean that. Music technology wasn't *that* developed to produce such things as Electric Cafe or even The Mix without a constant preoccupation in getting new hardware. > Karl Bartos would probably disagree. He says that one of the most > important reasons why he left Kraftwerk was their use of the > Synclavier. He said that he finds the Synclavier too limiting, it > would destroy creativity. And he said that this lack of creativity was > one of the main reasons for the long periods between the Kraftwerk > releases, not the studio updates. Ah, the Synclavier, that often criticized instrument. What Karl Bartos is saying is that he prefers a small network of PCs and Macs rather than a Cray or a Connection Machine. Are these more limiting than a couple of PCs and Macs? Only according to the working methods. I understand clearly both approaches, in which one might be regarded almost as "institutional"--you have to state clearly your ideas or nothing comes out--and the other is more "playful"--you can toy with the stuff and see what comes out. If Bartos prefers to "turn knobs" and dabble with the electronics, perhaps that's less creative than to picture the whole idea for a piece of music and render it materialized through conscious and dedicated work. Every musician has dabbled with his instrument sometime in his life, surely, and so have KW with all knobs, sliders and jacks. But after that comes the preferred method of work--if Bartos didn't like it, he made the best choice by leaving Kraftwerk. To conclude with the Synclavier, FYI, George Michael has one, as do Stevie Wonder, Sting, Propaganda, Michael Jackson (has two, in fact), and a whole lot of artists which I can't think of at the moment, and I guess none of them had their creativities destroyed beyond salvation. I personally own and use a music-studio, electronics-oriented, obviously, so please give me some credit for what I say above. Perhaps this is a good occasion to bring some closure to the Gesamtkunstwerk situation and start a discussion on music technology, sound technology, and KW's technology and accomplishments in particular. Best! - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #464 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #465 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Friday, 16 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 465 Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Re: KW with long hair??? Megaherz looking for KW on vynl Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Re: Crosstalk 10" promo chain letters ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:08:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: Thomas Weckert On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- > To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu= that > says: 'unsubscribe kraftwerk' and 'unsubscribe kraftwerk-digest' in the m= essage > body. All messages sent to this list are automatically made available via= FTP, > -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - ----- > Really-From: Adam J Weitzman >=20 >=20 > I happened across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this weekend. = =20 > It has "Crosstalk" on the A side and a very good remix titled=20 > "Intercomix" on the B. (I'll have to check the A again, but I think=20 > it's slightly longer than the album version.) The labels just have "A"= =20 > and "B" stamped on them, but the inner sleeve has a sticker that lists=20 > the contents of the platter, and the outside sleeve has a purple tower=20 > stamped on it with "Elektric Music Crosstalk" stamped on that in red. >=20 > Does anyone know what the relative rarity of this might be? >=20 > Thanks for any info. > --=20 > Adam J Weitzman ----- Individual, Inc. ----- weitzman@individual.com > "I love the music of the 20th century!" - Bruce Willis, "12 Monkeys" >=20 Well, I did not know that this promo was also available as a single! In autumn 1992 a CD single "Intercomix" was released in 5000 copies with three tracks: Crosstalk, Intercomix and Baby come back. To my surprise, several record shops in Duesseldorf still have large amounts of this single, but without the serial number on the cover. Perhaps your record is a promo=B4s promo? Thomas ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:58:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: KW with long hair??? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, I have two basic comments to make pertaining to this posting thread. Number one, I don't see why KW having long hair once upon a time should surprise anyone on this list, for anyone who owns a copy of 'Kraftwerk 2' is well aware of that fact from the pictures in the sleeve. Number two, I should certainly hope that nobody on a Kraftwerk mailing list would be that judgmental as to become disheartened by the fact that KW wore long hair at some point. Their music has gone through an evolutionary process of change from the days of 'Kraftwerk', 'Kraftwerk 2', and 'Ralf & Florian' to the days of 'Computer World', 'Electric Cafe', and 'The Mix'. We're talking about a 21 year period (1970-1991) right there in itself, so why be surprised that the appearance of the members of KW should be subject to change as well? Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "The young man stepped into the hall of mirrors..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:59:08 -0500 Subject: Megaherz Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com I just love to drive around in my car and listen to the vinyl dub of Kraftwerk 1 and hear the soothing sounds of Megaherz pouring out the speakers. With all of the crackles and pops included, the true sounds of the electronic lifestyle are epitomized right there for a brief moment in time--I drive through the industrial part of town and see the decay of buildings and rusting machines, cross empty train tracks and lifeless smoke stacks. I wonder why these wonderful things are so taken for granted by the population of the city...but with Megaherz, it just doesn't matter -- as long as I meld with the forgotten industry.................. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:06:09 -0500 Subject: looking for KW on vynl Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i sm looking to buy KW on vynl (only from someone in the USA) does anyone have any to sell??? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:27:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > Perhaps this is a good occasion to bring some closure to the > Gesamtkunstwerk situation I'm terribly sorry, but I HAD to add a few comments. :-) > The "terminus technicus" character does not prevent a term from > being interpreted and reinterpreted in light of generalizations and > updates of its original meaning Of course not, but what you are doing is more than just reinterpretation, you give the term a completely new meaning. > One example is "Twelve-tone music." Other terms have evolved to > correct the misfortune of the term being too general Okay, this may be the case with Schoenbergs music, but it didn't happen with the Gesamtkunstwerk term until now. > (stretching its meaning, it even is widely accepted Hm, I doubt the "widely". > that *all* western tonal music of the 18th and 19th centuries may > be described as "twelve-tone music"). But if "tvelve-tone music" is used in this way, the term becomes meaningless. If all the classical music is twelve-tone music (which is in this sense of course true, but trivial), you don't have to call it so, "music" would say the same. It's the same with "Gesamtkunstwerk". The definition of a term makes only sense if it divides certain artforms from others. If a definition is too wide, it is worthless. > > > The concept pertains to the band's attitude in making music, > > > their live presentation a facet of the whole--and the whole means the > > > idea behind the music, the design, the lyrics, ..., ultimately their > > > live act. > > > > And what would you say to Marcus Ohlstrom's argument that the > > live aspect is not present on a record, and that the concept works > > nonetheless? You've previously claimed that it wouldn't be > > possible to omit single parts of the whole concept without destroying it. > > Is this not contradicted by the fact that they release their songs > > on records, where the visual aspects are not present (or, to be more > > precise: are only present via the album covers)? > > I never referred to the live performances of Kraftwerk as part of > my idea of KW being a Gesamtkunstwerk. I can't follow you. You said that the whole means ultimately the live act, and now you say that live performances are not part of the Gesamtkunstwerk? I find this inconsequent. > Please note that I say "KW is a Gesamtkunstwerk" and not, for > instance, "Autobahn" is Gesamtkunstwerk. In this case it should be impossible to perform "Autobahn" out of the context of Kraftwerk's complete oeuvre, and they should not have released the track as a 7" edit. They should not have released any singles at all! > The *whole* concept of Kraftwerk may be regarded as a > Gesamtkunstwerk. But the live shows *are* a part of the whole concept. > > After all, the Balanescu Quartet was invited to perform their > > "Kraftwerk concert" at the ARS ELECTRONICA festival, which wouldn't > > make much sense if these covers were really *only* "music for the joy of > > music itself". > > I don't see the purpose of ARS ELECTRONICA as beyond "music for the > joy of music itself." Well, the ARS ELECTRONICA organizers do... > Is it a conference of the world-renowned composers of electronic > music, No, it's a conference of computer artists in general, not necessarily world-renowned. > or is it a festival with "commercial" musicians and composers? Hardly. But what I mainly mean is: The performance of a *string* quartet at a *computer* art festival does only make sense if the original "computer" spirit is still present in the string versions. BTW: The Balanescu concert was a bigger success than Kraftwerk's own performance at the festival. In fact it was probably Kraftwerk's biggest flop in the 1990ies. > > > What term would he employ to mean something that is "global > > > art." > > > > Well, what about "Multimedia-Kunst"? Or anything else which means > > literally the same, but is not already associated with a different > > meaning. > > But "Multimedia-Kunst" does not capture the essence of the idea he > wants to transmit. The idea is precise: "Global Art." Then it could be called "Global Art", or maybe "Globale Kunst", if you prefer. > "Kraftwerk have *limited* themselves to the use of electronic > instruments" sounds a bit ironic. But the sentence is true, isn't it? > Everyone knows that the advent of electronics in music meant two > things: Construct timbres non-existent in the current instrumentarium, and > reproduce *every* existent timbre with arbitrary precision (obviously this > last assertion was more like a postulate, but it proves as much true as > technology advances). Agreed, but this target is still not reached, and it can be doubted that it will ever be reached. > If there is a "broad medium of expression," the electronics suggest > it But you won't deny that that a musician who uses *both* electronic and other instruments has a broader medium of expression than someone who uses *only* electronic instruments. > Regarding the idea of "The Man Machine," this is a proficient > concept and a rather broad medium But it's only *one* theme, and if artists deal their whole life with mainly one theme, I would call this highly specialised, but not broad. > of otherwise it wouldn't be in the origin > of some literature of the past (Kraftwerk did not create this idea), > and was even compared (KW's rendition) to Nietzsche's idea of > "Superman." Not being a Nietzsche expert, I believe that his ideas of men and machines were completely different to Kraftwerk's ones, but maybe you can prove me wrong? > > > and, as you know, "Electric Cafe," > > > > Hm, is this album really "avant-garde"? Okay, maybe because of > > it's sound, but rather not because of it's concept and musical style > > In the seventies there were no rhythms made solely from pieces of > articulated words, Of course they were. > made possible by the use of digital samplers. Okay, but that's not so much a question of musical style, that's rather a question of technology. > Regarding concept and style, using your arguments, I could say that > Wagner ceased to be avant-garde from the moment he composed his > (first) masterworks, since I don't think that his style has changed (much) > throughout his life. 1. This is wrong. (Just compare "The Flying Dutchman" with "Tristan and Isolde".) 2. "Avant-garde" means not "progression", but "being in front of the others". And Wagner was in front of the others until his death. With Kraftwerk, I'm not so sure. > > Do you really believe that the upgrading of their studio is the > > main reason for the long periods of silence, only because Ralf Huetter > > claims this in his interviews? I'm sorry, but I think that it is > > evident that this is a lie. > > As I said previously, every piece from KW and ultimately every > album appears only after long periods of experimentation and exploration. Yes, and after even longer periods of cycling, leisure, cycling, travelling, cycling, nightclubbing and cycling. Or do you honestly believe their "eight-hours-per-day, five-days-per-week" (ROF,L!) myth? > I'm well aware of the short spans between some of the albums, for > instance between The Man Machine and TEE The spans were short between *all* their albums up to "The Man Machine"! > > In an ease-of-use-way, they did *no* upgrading at all since 1981. > > Since they currently use ordinary PCs and Macs running ordinary software, > that seems ease-of-use enough. Before they used computers, they worked with tapes. And tape-decks are easier to use than computers, IMHO. > > In a technological way, there are current updates, okay, but this > > cannot be an important reason. The changes in their equipment > > were minimal between 1991 and 1993. It is *one* reason, no doubt, but > > it is obviously a minor one. > > We are discussing a 15-year period, not a 3-year one. But if studio-upgrading is the most important reason for the long periods between the albums, and there was almost no upgrading in these three years, why haven't they released anything since 1991? > > > they wouldn't have made a serious redesign of Kling Klang > > > Studio > > > > They did the latest *serious* redesign of the Kling Klang Studio > > in 1981, fifteen years ago... > > I surely don't mean that. Music technology wasn't *that* developed > to produce such things as Electric Cafe or even The Mix without a > constant preoccupation in getting new hardware. Exact, it is rather a permanent process than a consequent redesign. And such permanent upgrading with new technology happens in every modern studio, so it's not specific for Kling-Klang. > To conclude with the Synclavier, FYI, George Michael has one, as do > Stevie Wonder, Sting, Propaganda, Michael Jackson (has two, in > fact), and a whole lot of artists which I can't think of at the moment, > and I guess none of them had their creativities destroyed beyond > salvation. On the other hand, all these artists are known for their low output rate, and maybe this could indicate a certain lack of creativity (Please don't take this comment too serious, it's just a spontaneous thought). Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:40:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Crosstalk 10" promo Really-From: Brendan Heading >>I happened across a white-label 10" promo for "Crosstalk" this weekend. >>Does anyone know what the relative rarity of this might be? >It's _RARE_!!! I bought mine in London at UKP20 (=$30) but that was a real >bargain, i've been offered up to UKP90 ($140) for it since. What the hell's Crosstalk ? Can someone PLEASE tell me ? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:07:46 -0600 Subject: chain letters Really-From: datta@cs.uwp.edu (David Datta) >From now on, any boneheads posting ANY more chain letters to any lists at uwp.edu will be summarily silenced on ALL lists at uwp.edu. It's bad enough I have to filter over 50 broken mailer programs and 5 common scams already. I don't want to have to start adding real people who are on the lists. (Idiots who post the magazine and other get-rich quick scams are not people, they are scum.) - -- ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #465 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #466 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Saturday, 17 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 466 Re: Megaherz & Esperanto Electric Music 2 Versions of Cleopatra's 'The Model' Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Re: Megaherz & Esperanto Bootleg Tour De France on CD Re: Bootleg Tour De France on CD Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:00:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Megaherz & Esperanto Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, In response to ManMachn2@aol.com's previous posting, thanks for the nice visual imagery you provided in your story about driving around listening to "Megaherz" in the car. One of my personal favorite KW tracks! I'd have to say that 'soothing' is certainly one word I'd use to describe it, but I'd also have to deem the song 'entrancing' as well. I suppose when you're driving it's safer to be soothed than entranced. Oh well, I'll just have to make sure I leave my 'Kraftwerk' album in the apartment. Just kidding, it's already in the car. Second order of business, I was making my local trip to the record stores yesterday and came across a copy of Elektric Music's "Esperanto" which I had passed up for a couple of years now. I could never bring myself to buy it because I heard from KW fans that it's just not nearly as good. I suppose it certainly can't hurt to pick it up, but I figured I'd see what you guys have to say on the matter. Thanks. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "The young man stepped into the hall of mirrors..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:58:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Electric Music Really-From: "Gerald E. Withers" Hi, I have all Kraftwerk Albums and a buch of CD's and now would like to collect Electric Music stuff. I have Esperanto. Are there any others? - ------------------------------------////-------------------------------------- Jerry Withers Only Amiga //// A2000/100HD 030/882/5Mb 50Mhz 401 Euclid Ave //// makes A2386 & VGA 150MB HD Syracuse N.Y. 13210 \\\\//// it A2230 GVP Spectrum 28/24 gewither@.mailbox.syr.edu \\\///possible! AmigaD0S 3.1 - -------------------------------\\//------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:50:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 2 Versions of Cleopatra's 'The Model' Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, Hello. At some time 2 years ago I purchased Cleopatra's release called 'The Model (Retrospective 1975-1978)'. The catalog number on this one is CLEO57612, and it was released in 1992. The CD contains 11 tracks, all taken from Kraftwerk's years (1975-1978) on Capitol Records. The front cover of the CD features a vertical fold-out illustration of a mannequin of some sort against a smoky red and green mist and a brick wall. Since I've been to record stores over the last year, I've been noticing a re-release (I suppose) of this CD. The tracks are all the same, but the cover is divided into 4 quarters, each quarter featuring a member from KW at his corresponding electronic console. Furthermore, this later edition of 'The Model' retrospective features the words 'The Best Of Kraftwerk' on its cover. These words did not appear on the original edition that I have. I am curious to know if there's any difference between these 2 CDs other than the illustrations. By the way, for those of you who have the original version that I have, did you ever notice the similarity between the mannequin on the cover and the robot 'Hel' from Fritz Lang's classic film 'Metropolis'? It is clear that KW were influenced greatly by Lang's work, the most obvious example being the song "Metropolis" itself on 'The Man-Machine'. As far as I know, Kraftwerk themselves had nothing to do with the cover of 'The Model' retrospective, so I'm curious to know if there is some kind of reference being implied here. Thanks. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "And at the fall of night, this city's made of light." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:46:05 +0100 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Really-From: Paulo Mouat > Of course not, but what you are doing is more than just > reinterpretation, you give the term a completely new meaning. I don't agree, I'm giving a *freer* notion of what a global artwork might be. I'm not saying that water is wine... >> One example is "Twelve-tone music." Other terms have evolved to >> correct the misfortune of the term being too general > Okay, this may be the case with Schoenbergs music, but it didn't > happen with the Gesamtkunstwerk term until now. It has, and Ralf's statement is such an indication. Ask any artist what he thinks a Global Artwork / Gesamtkunstwerk should be *today* (preferably one that isn't affected by theory and History, i.e. one that understands what was meant in the past and what that meaning might be today). >> (stretching its meaning, it even is widely accepted > Hm, I doubt the "widely". Don't doubt, otherwise you're saying that all musicologists are wrong. >> that *all* western tonal music of the 18th and 19th centuries may >> be described as "twelve-tone music"). > But if "tvelve-tone music" is used in this way, the term becomes > meaningless. If all the classical music is twelve-tone music (which > is in this sense of course true, but trivial), you don't have to call > it so, "music" would say the same. Not quite. "Twelve-tone music" means music using the twelve chromatic degrees (I don't know if this is the correct term in english) of the equally-tempered scale. There existed other temperaments, particularly in early music. > It's the same with "Gesamtkunstwerk". The definition of a term makes > only sense if it divides certain artforms from others. If a definition > is too wide, it is worthless. >> I never referred to the live performances of Kraftwerk as part of >> my idea of KW being a Gesamtkunstwerk. > I can't follow you. You said that the whole means ultimately the live > act, and now you say that live performances are not part of the > Gesamtkunstwerk? I find this inconsequent. It is the philosophy of KW, meeting scientists, computer-graphics experts, and so on, that makes the concept one of "Global Art" or Gesamtkunstwerk. I never said that KW were a Gesamtkunstwerk only in, or because of, live-performances. What I said, and I repeat, was that the concept was in perfect accord with the idea of Gesamtkunstwerk, all elements of its idea present in one way or another. >> Please note that I say "KW is a Gesamtkunstwerk" and not, for >> instance, "Autobahn" is Gesamtkunstwerk. > In this case it should be impossible to perform "Autobahn" out of the > context of Kraftwerk's complete oeuvre, and they should not have > released the track as a 7" edit. They should not have released any > singles at all! My point was that the pieces are created under the philosophy of Global Art, but in isolation--i.e. if heard by someone who is oblivious of the context in which the piece is integrated--it might be difficult to understand the why's, what's and how's of its creation, certainly, but it is music, after all. In KW there is something besides the music, and that something was only apparent after a couple of albums. If they released only one album, the designation as Gesamtkunstwerk might be erroneous. >> The *whole* concept of Kraftwerk may be regarded as a >> Gesamtkunstwerk. > But the live shows *are* a part of the whole concept. Yes, but they're only a particular aspect and, moreover, are the result of a line of thought and philosophy, not the other way around. > But what I mainly mean is: The performance of a *string* quartet at a > *computer* art festival does only make sense if the original > "computer" spirit is still present in the string versions. Perhaps a simple "curiosity"? >> But "Multimedia-Kunst" does not capture the essence of the idea he >> wants to transmit. The idea is precise: "Global Art." > Then it could be called "Global Art", or maybe "Globale Kunst", if > you prefer. This is an unfruitful game of words. The precise idea might be also defined, in english, "Total Art." If you like literal translations, it could, it should, be defined as "Gesamtkunst." > But you won't deny that that a musician who uses *both* electronic and > other instruments has a broader medium of expression than someone who > uses *only* electronic instruments. Since Wagner didn't use any electronic instruments, and since electronic instruments provide an almost limitless freedom in timbre, I guess that music made with electronic instruments can be "more complete" than, and beyond, any of Wagner's pieces. >> Regarding the idea of "The Man Machine," this is a proficient >> concept and a rather broad medium > But it's only *one* theme, and if artists deal their whole life with > mainly one theme, I would call this highly specialised, but not > broad. The biggest part of all of western art is devoted to religion. This is only *one* theme. Does it mean that the *one* theme constricts the media of expression? "The Man Machine" *is* a broad medium of expression as is "Artificial Intelligence" or "Alien Contact." These are all particular subjects, but they are inequivocably proficient (the volume of literary or musical works with these as central themes proves my point). >> of otherwise it wouldn't be in the origin >> of some literature of the past (Kraftwerk did not create this idea), >> and was even compared (KW's rendition) to Nietzsche's idea of >> "Superman." > Not being a Nietzsche expert, I believe that his ideas of men and > machines were completely different to Kraftwerk's ones, but maybe you > can prove me wrong? Nietzsche's ideas of men and machines aren't related with KW. The idea of "Man Machine" *has* some parallels with Nietzsche's "Superman." BTW, the comparison isn't mine. >> In the seventies there were no rhythms made solely from pieces of >> articulated words, > Of course they were. Give me an example--using electronics, which was the remainder of my phrase. > "Avant-garde" means not "progression", but "being in front of the > others". And Wagner was in front of the others until his death. With > Kraftwerk, I'm not so sure. Well, my whole discography gravitates mainly around electronic music and I think KW is pretty sure ahead of the others, when the comparison is possible and in the same periods. As for continuing to be ahead, we'll have to wait for the next release. As for the meaning of "avant-garde" it means both "being in front of the others" and "progression" (what is "progression" but to be "in front of others?"). > Before they used computers, they worked with tapes. And tape-decks are > easier to use than computers, IMHO. Yes, tape-decks are easier to use than computers, but only the sense that an abacus is also easier to use than a calculator or a computer. What we're talking here is the *ease-of-use* with which you can perform complex tasks, and the most simple music-software has an ease-of-use and versatility incomparable to, and unbeaten by, the use of tapes. As an example, and the proof that they finally reached a state of "ease-of-useness" not present before is that "The Mix" was recorded live, *without* tapes, all driven by the band and computers. > It is rather a permanent process than a consequent redesign. > And such permanent upgrading with new technology happens in every > modern studio, so it's not specific for Kling-Klang. There is a constant preoccupation in acquiring new hardware, and there was in fact a redesign of the Kling Klang studio after "Electric Cafe". Let's not forget that everything is digital now, they abandoned analog archives (the tapes with the sounds) and stored everything in hard-disk format. Ralf says that now everything is accessible in an intuitive way, long gone the days of notating hardware settings for the sounds and filters and even the music. Now, they can concentrate on the music. Also, there were changes in the visual aspects, all synchronized to and controlled by the whole music-system. >> To conclude with the Synclavier, FYI, George Michael has one, as do >> Stevie Wonder, Sting, Propaganda, Michael Jackson (has two, in >> fact), and a whole lot of artists which I can't think of at the >> moment, and I guess none of them had their creativities destroyed >> beyond salvation. > On the other hand, all these artists are known for their low output > rate, and maybe this could indicate a certain lack of creativity Are you sure? What would be an "acceptable" output rate? If you consider the usual one-to-two-year lapse between records, I don't consider that these artists have a low output rate. You should be aware that most of that time is consumed in the production phase of the release of a record, not to mention the conditionals of marketing strategy and commerce. Of course, there are always exceptions. Tangerine Dream release some three-four albums a year, but I don't consider these albums to be effortful productions. Klaus Schulze once said, "after I compose a piece, I can record it straight in one night, but I spend the next two months mixing it." Regards. - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:45:54 +0100 Subject: Re: Megaherz & Esperanto Really-From: Paulo Mouat > I suppose it certainly can't hurt to pick it up, but I figured I'd see > what you guys have to say on the matter. Thanks. "Esperanto" is an essential... - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:04:04 -0600 Subject: Bootleg Tour De France on CD Really-From: Phil Lefkowitz I found one company that is selling the Tour de France EP on CD (bootleg). Has anyone heard it, purchased it, or seen it?? Phil mplefkow@gsbpop.uchicago.edu ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:20:48 -0500 Subject: Re: Bootleg Tour De France on CD Really-From: Nthings@aol.com please tell me where the company is (internet adress, phone number, snail mail adress) please i want to get a copy of it. and yes it is good! - ----Nate "smelly toungs looked just like they felt" -The Residents ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 04:43:10 +0000 Subject: Re: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > what you are doing is more than just reinterpretation, you give the term a > > completely new meaning. > > I don't agree, I'm giving a *freer* notion of what a global artwork > might be. We're not discussing what a global artwork might be, we're discussing the meaning of the *term* "Gesamtkunstwerk". And I think that you *are* changing it's meaning. To give a very simplified definition of "Gesamtkunstwerk", it means a piece of art which is a synthesis of all the known artforms, like music, drama, lyrics, ballet, fine arts etc. etc., each one of similar importance for the complete work. What you say describes something different. I don't deny that it would make a certain sense to use the term in the way you suggest if it wasn't already occupied with a different meaning, but after all, it *is* an occupied term. Please remember my example with "Communism". You can hardly use this word out of the marxistic/socialistic context, even if it was literally correct. The problem is that such use would be misleading, and people would hardly be able to understand you. > >> One example is "Twelve-tone music." Other terms have evolved to > >> correct the misfortune of the term being too general > > Okay, this may be the case with Schoenbergs music, but it didn't > > happen with the Gesamtkunstwerk term until now. > > It has, and Ralf's statement is such an indication. It may be an indication, but is no proof. > >> (stretching its meaning, it even is widely accepted > > Hm, I doubt the "widely". > > Don't doubt, otherwise you're saying that all musicologists are wrong. Well, I've looked into three books about music theory and all three used the term only in the Schoenbergian way. > "Twelve-tone music" means music using the twelve chromatic > degrees (I don't know if this is the correct term in english) of the > equally-tempered scale. Literally yes, but as a terminus technicus not. The term is commonly only used for music in which one tone is not repeated before the eleven other tones were used (very simplified definition, of course). But we're going far away from Kraftwerk and should end this part of the discussion. > It is the philosophy of KW, meeting scientists, computer-graphics > experts, and so on, that makes the concept one of "Global Art" or > Gesamtkunstwerk. NO!!! One of the most elementary aspects of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea is that all the elements of the complete work should be supplied by one and the same artist. Any cooperation with other people (Rebecca Allen, Maxime Schmitt, Francois Kevorkian etc.) is the exact opposite of a Gesamtkunstwerk concept. > What I said, and I repeat, was > that the concept was in perfect accord with the idea of Gesamtkunstwerk, > all elements of its idea present in one way or another. Simple presence is not enough, as this would be the case with practically every rock show. The elements must also be of similar importance, and I don't think that this is the case with Kraftwerk, as I've tried to explain in detail in my previous mailings. > > But what I mainly mean is: The performance of a *string* quartet at a > > *computer* art festival does only make sense if the original > > "computer" spirit is still present in the string versions. > > Perhaps a simple "curiosity"? Perhaps, but it wasn't regarded as such from the critics. > it could, it should, be defined as "Gesamtkunst." It could be if the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" wasn't already occupied, it should be not since it *is* already occupied. > since electronic instruments provide an almost limitless freedom in timbre This quote on a musician's maillist would be a sure candidate for a flame war starter! > I guess that music made with electronic instruments can be "more complete" Of course they can, but they must not. > than, and beyond, any of Wagner's pieces. We shouldn't forget the historical context. Wagner used all the ressources of his time, Kraftwerk don't use all the ressources of today, so they're limitating themselves to the use of certain instruments, which reduces their medium of expression. > > But it's only *one* theme, and if artists deal their whole life with > > mainly one theme, I would call this highly specialised, but not > > broad. > > The biggest part of all of western art is devoted to religion. Yes, but not *only* to religion. > "The Man Machine" *is* a broad medium of > expression as is "Artificial Intelligence" or "Alien Contact." These > are all particular subjects, but they are inequivocably proficient Almost everything is a broad medium of expression in this sense. > (the volume of literary or musical works with these as central themes proves > my point). Quantity proves nothing, quality is the crucial point. > >> In the seventies there were no rhythms made solely from pieces of > >> articulated words, > > Of course they were. > > Give me an example--using electronics, which was the remainder of my > phrase. Yes, but it wasn't a senseful one, since we were only speaking of musical style in this context, not of technology. > Well, my whole discography gravitates mainly around electronic music > and I think KW is pretty sure ahead of the others, when the comparison > is possible and in the same periods. In a technological sense maybe, in a musical sense I don't think so, not after "The Man Machine" (and maybe "Computer World"). > > "Avant-garde" means not "progression", but "being in front of the > > others". > it means both "being in front of the others" and "progression" No. It was originally a military term and meant the part of the army that stands in front of the other parts on the battlefield (avant = in front of). It was later transferred to the art context. > (what is "progression" but to be "in front of others?"). "Progression" implies movement. If someone stands before me he's in front of me, even if we both don't move/progress. > "The Mix" was recorded live, *without* tapes You shouldn't believe everything what Ralf Huetter claims... In some interviews he says that they didn't use tapes while recording "The Mix", in others he says that they did. There are lots of other examples for such contradicting quotes. You're probably good advised to believe not too much of what Ralf Huetter says about Kraftwerk's working methods. > > On the other hand, all these artists are known for their low output > > rate, and maybe this could indicate a certain lack of creativity > > Are you sure? Hey, you've deleted the second half of the sentence, where I made clear that this was rather meant as an intuitive idea! It's just that if someone would ask me: "What have Kraftwerk, Sting, Stevie Wonder, George Michael and Michael Jackson in common, my first thought would be: "They all have a low output rate." That's all! No need to take this too serious. Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #466 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #467 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Sunday, 18 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 467 Re: Elektric Music; non-'Esperanto' tracks/mixes Beep Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Re: Versions of 'The Model' compilation Re: Beep Gesamtkunstwerk Stop (hopefully) Techno (Pop) album cover ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 17 Feb 96 11:23:04 EST Subject: Re: Elektric Music; non-'Esperanto' tracks/mixes Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > Really-From: "Gerald E. Withers" > > Hi, I have all Kraftwerk Albums and a buch of CD's and now would like to > collect Electric Music stuff. I have Esperanto. Are there any others? In terms of album releases, no. 'Esperanto' is Elektric Music's first and (most probably) only album. As well as the eight tracks on 'Esperanto' there are also other tracks/ mixes available on single releases. Here's a quick guide to those; 'LIFESTYLE' (originally on 'Esperanto') There are four remixes of 'Lifestyle' available; 'Lifestyle' (Radio-Style) (3'39") 'Lifestyle' (Club-Style) (6'00") 'Lifestyle' (Phoneme-Style) (3'32") 'Lifestyle' (Edit-Style) (7'30") These all appear on the German-released 5" CD single; SPV records, SPV 055-93853 There was also a release of the CD single in Sweden on East West records. Some of the mixes also appear on the German 12" single too. There was no UK release of the single. I don't know if there were *any* US Elektric Music CD releases, can anyone confirm this? 'TV' (also on 'Esperanto') There are four versions of 'TV' available; 'TV' (4'00") (the single edit, appears on CD single, 12", 7" formats) 'TV' (5'44") (the longer version, appears on the 'Esperanto' album) 'TV2' (5'40") (a very different arrangement, available only on the 12" vinyl and MiniDisc releases, *not* on CD) 'TELEVISION' (another, mainly instrumental, different mix, available on the CD, 7", 12" formats.) 'INTERCOMIX' This track is a different version of 'Crosstalk' - it appears on the German CD single of 'Crosstalk' and the B side of the German promo 10" single of same. 'BABY COME BACK' Yes, it *is* the Eddy Grant/Equals track - it appears on the German CD single of 'Crosstalk'. It was originally on a box-set compilation offered by the UK music paper NME. As far as I am aware, it is the same version of 'Crosstalk' that appears on the promo 10" as per the regular album version. The CD single sleeve lists that there should be a 3'33" edit of 'Crosstalk' present, but the CD itself contains the same length version as per the album. > Really-From: Thomas Weckert > > Well, I did not know that this promo was also available as a single! > In autumn 1992 a CD single "Intercomix" was released in 5000 copies > with three tracks: Crosstalk, Intercomix and Baby come back. To my > surprise, several record shops in Duesseldorf still have large amounts > of this single, but without the serial number on the cover. Perhaps > your record is a promo? Interesting! The German 'Crosstalk' CD single was indeed numbered on each copy. However, the promo copies at the time were *not* numbered. Could it be that surplus promo copies have now ended up in the shops?! A re-pressing seems unlikely! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 14:32:39 -0500 Subject: Beep Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com Wow, finally someone who listens to the Residents. "can tomorrow be more than the end of today" -The Residents ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 20:38:00 +0100 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Non Stop / Techno (Pop) Really-From: Paulo Mouat > We're not discussing what a global artwork might be, we're discussing > the meaning of the *term* "Gesamtkunstwerk". No, I'm trying to apply the term to Kraftwerk. I'm well aware of the meaning of the word, and so maybe it *is* what a global artwork is in each of our minds that conflicts. > And I think that you *are* changing it's meaning. To give a very > simplified definition of "Gesamtkunstwerk", it means a piece of art > which is a synthesis of all the known artforms, like music, drama, > lyrics, ballet, fine arts etc. etc., each one of similar importance > for the complete work. So what you are saying is that Von Wolzogen used indeed a too powerful term. Since there can be a natural way of filtering all absolutism from such words, I agree that a piece by Wagner can be a global artwork (which in itself does not fit in the ideal) as well as the whole concept of Kraftwerk, which may not fit too in the ideal. > What you say describes something different. I don't deny that it > would make a certain sense to use the term in the way you suggest if > it wasn't already occupied with a different meaning, but after all, > it *is* an occupied term. The meaning is not different, it is just slightly broader--sometimes it takes an uncomplexed approach (without extraneous weight) to change things, especially art concepts, which tend to be overly subjective, and this is such an ocurrence. All shifts in well-established music ideas and concepts ocurred mainly in this century, because reality itself, in which they all dwell, has changed dramatically. The overall idea of total art/global art is *intuitively* something that is very different from what it was a century ago, and the misuse of the term (particularly by artists/musicians) suggests the need to take contexts very clearly, and such misuse is simply a misuse (only if we are unflexibly strict), not an abuse. But OK, let's give this subject the proposed closure, and I'll use some other term from Ralf, "Kraftwerk is the total concept." This could generate a similar never ending discussion on what the "total" is ;-). > Please remember my example with "Communism". You can hardly use this > word out of the marxistic/socialistic context, even if it was > literally correct. The problem is that such use would be > misleading, and people would hardly be able to understand you. This is not true. People often use words from different contexts, particularly words that have very clear definitions, to express ideas that aren't related to the original context of the word. Of course, it is not a formalization of the use of the term in this new context, but its meaning is well understood. Otherwise, there wouldn't exist figures of speech or metaphors. >>>> One example is "Twelve-tone music." Other terms have evolved to >>>> correct the misfortune of the term being too general >>> Okay, this may be the case with Schoenbergs music, but it didn't >>> happen with the Gesamtkunstwerk term until now. >> It has, and Ralf's statement is such an indication. > It may be an indication, but is no proof. The indication suggests the need to be able to contextualize words, as I say above. I don't need any proof to understand that, and to separate its use in Wagner's terms and in "modern" terms. > Well, I've looked into three books about music theory and all three > used the term ("twelve-tone music") only in the Schoenbergian way. In a music theory book it is not unusual to find that definition. In a book of music history, particularly one that concentrates in 20th century music, that would be unusual (cf. "La musique du XXe si'ecle," von der Weid). >> "Twelve-tone music" means music using the twelve chromatic >> degrees (I don't know if this is the correct term in english) of the >> equally-tempered scale. > Literally yes, but as a terminus technicus not. The term is commonly > only used for music in which one tone is not repeated before the > eleven other tones were used (very simplified definition, of course). Not correct. It is usual to find such a definition, but that is an abuse of language. Music constructed in the way you say, that is, to state every note from the twelve chromatic tones before repeating any of them is called "serialism." This idea was expanded to the other variables of music (time/duration, dynamics, etc.) and gave birth to "integral serialism." Cf. "The New Music," Smith-Brindle or "Analytic Approaches to 20th Century Music," Lester. >> It is the philosophy of KW, meeting scientists, computer-graphics >> experts, and so on, that makes the concept one of "Global Art" or >> Gesamtkunstwerk. > NO!!! One of the most elementary aspects of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea > is that all the elements of the complete work should be supplied by > one and the same artist. Any cooperation with other people (Rebecca > Allen, Maxime Schmitt, Francois Kevorkian etc.) is the exact opposite > of a Gesamtkunstwerk concept. The cooperation is not in creation, I believe. If would want to know if this or that is feasible, I would want advice. But the idea, the preoccupation of using various instruments of expression would still be mine. >> Perhaps a simple "curiosity"? > Perhaps, but it wasn't regarded as such from the critics. What have they said? "Balanescu captures the essence of KW, etc, etc..." and such statements does not put their rendition beyond mere curiosity. >> it could, it should, be defined as "Gesamtkunst." > It could be if the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" wasn't already occupied, it > should be not since it *is* already occupied. But Gesamtkunst is not a term in use, only Gesamtkunstwerk ;-). >> since electronic instruments provide an almost limitless freedom in >> timbre > This quote on a musician's maillist would be a sure candidate for a > flame war starter! I can't understand why. It is a trivial truth. We could develop on this upon closure of the Gesamtkunstwerk situation and integrate it on a technological discussion of KW, which would please many in this list, surely. Please develop on this! >> I guess that music made with electronic instruments can be "more >> complete" > Of course they can, but they must not. I hereby rest my case. >> than, and beyond, any of Wagner's pieces. > > We shouldn't forget the historical context. Wagner used all the > ressources of his time, Kraftwerk don't use all the ressources of > today, so they're limitating themselves to the use of certain > instruments, which reduces their medium of expression. That is not the question. Their medium of expression manages to be wider than Wagner, even limited as you say. >> The biggest part of all of western art is devoted to religion. > Yes, but not *only* to religion. But that art, confined to religion, is vast. Religion, although specialized, did not constrain artists. >> "The Man Machine" *is* a broad medium of expression as is "Artificial >> Intelligence" or "Alien Contact." These are all particular subjects, >> but they are inequivocably proficient > Almost everything is a broad medium of expression in this sense. Yes, the human mind can develop and extrapolate from simple ideas, which was my point--it can base a complete life of devotion to one particular theme without exhausting it. >> (the volume of literary or musical works with these as central >> themes proves my point). > Quantity proves nothing, quality is the crucial point. That was implicit. Consider only the *quality* works devoted to, for instance, passion or romance. How can there be so many works, be it in music, literature, painting, sculpture, and all are different and widely appealing? A broad medium of expression indeed. >>>> In the seventies there were no rhythms made solely from pieces of >>>> articulated words, >>> Of course they were. >> Give me an example--using electronics, which was the remainder of my >> phrase. > Yes, but it wasn't a senseful one, since we were only speaking of > musical style in this context, not of technology. This is a much misunderstood idea, which is too vast to discuss here, that of the relations art<->technology<->quality<->innovation. One that is worthy of discussion in musicology! >> I think KW is pretty sure ahead of the others, when the comparison >> is possible and in the same periods. > In a technological sense maybe, in a musical sense I don't think so, > not after "The Man Machine" (and maybe "Computer World"). To put it in other terms, one album out of nine is below expectations (I'm not including "The Mix" because its material isn't new). It thus seems acceptable to account KW as ahead of the majority. As for the future, let's wait and see... >>> "Avant-garde" means not "progression", but "being in front of the >>> others". >> it means both "being in front of the others" and "progression" > No. It was originally a military term and meant the part of the army > that stands in front of the other parts on the battlefield (avant = in > front of). It was later transferred to the art context. In a musical context, it means progression also. Most of 20th century music was termed that way, and there was not any "being in front of the others" between say, Stockhausen and Boulez (or any other composer, for that matter...) It could be applied to "be in front of" 19th century music, but then why is it that "avant-garde" in 20th century means "post world war II music," i.e. some 50 years after the end of the 19th century? >> (what is "progression" but to be "in front of others?"). > "Progression" implies movement. If someone stands before me he's in > front of me, even if we both don't move/progress. So, the progress of technology means that technology has gone for a stroll? Obviously, progress and progression mean also evolution and advancement. >> "The Mix" was recorded live, *without* tapes > You shouldn't believe everything what Ralf Huetter claims... In some > interviews he says that they didn't use tapes while recording "The > Mix", in others he says that they did. There are lots of other > examples for such contradicting quotes. You're probably good advised > to believe not too much of what Ralf Huetter says about Kraftwerk's > working methods. Thank you for your advice, but since the Synclavier is also known as "Tapeless Studio," because it has all the resources to record music with direct-to-disk technology, in addition to sequencing, maybe tapes weren't used, in fact. Furthermore, it is common to blur the distiction between sequencers and tape machines, since the former emulates the latter (the interface is the same, with the "Play," "Record," "Stop," and all other buttons--there are even "Tracks" in a sequencer) and perhaps the words employed gave an erroneous idea to whomever interviewed, or perhaps Ralf misused the words. - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 17 Feb 96 14:50:44 EST Subject: Re: Versions of 'The Model' compilation Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > These words did not appear on the original edition that I have. > I am curious to know if there's any difference between these 2 CDs > other than the illustrations. Musically, there is no difference between the editions, as far as I am aware; In addition to the 'Best of Kraftwerk' text, the tracklisting also now lists 'Single Edit' after many of the tracks, which it did not before. This is correct in most cases; it is the US 7" edits of 'Radio-Activity', 'Antenna', 'Trans-Europe Express', 'The Robots' and 'Neon Lights' that are present on the disc. However in the case of 'Showroom Dummies' it is the full-length album version present on the disc, as per the original issue of the CD. It is *not* a shorter 'single edit'. Also worth noting; this second version of 'The Model' CD has extra artwork that is hidden underneath the grey/black plastic CD tray that is standard with this release. If you swop it for one of those see-through CD trays, makes a big difference. > It is clear that KW were influenced greatly by Lang's work, the most > obvious example being the song "Metropolis" itself on 'The Man-Machine'. > As far as I know, Kraftwerk themselves had nothing to do with the cover > of 'The Model'retrospective, so I'm curious to know if there is some > kind of reference being implied here. Thanks. IMHO, I would doubt it - the Cleopatra label's handling of Kraftwerk, their artwork and implied ideas seems somewhat unsympathetic - that they erased all of the deliberate constructivist-inspired artwork from their re-release of 'The Man Machine' is a case in point. To discard such a key element of the original 'package' suggests that the label may not be too interested in the numerous idealogical tangents that Kraftwerk's work involves. So, it seems unlikley that they may be aware of the Lang inspiration and thereby wand it into a sleeve design, but you never know I guess... ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 21:27:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Beep Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 02:32 PM 2/17/96 -0500, you wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >To remove yourself from this list, send a message to majordomo@cs.uwp.edu that >says: 'unsubscribe kraftwerk' and 'unsubscribe kraftwerk-digest' in the message >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com > > >Wow, finally someone who listens to the Residents. > >"can tomorrow be more than the end of today" > -The Residents Just figured I'd point out that I am the executive production manager of the band 'Rise Robots Rise' on TVT Records, a superb band that credits The Residents as one of their influences, among countless others. I also maintain the Rise Robots Rise mailing list on-line. Now that I've gotten that shameless plug out of the way, back to the Kraftwerk discussion! :o) Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Interpol and Deutsche Bank, FBI and Scotland Yard..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 01:44:47 +0000 Subject: Gesamtkunstwerk Stop (hopefully) Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > Since there can be a natural way of filtering all absolutism > from such words, I agree that a piece by Wagner can be a global > artwork (which in itself does not fit in the ideal) as well as the > whole concept of Kraftwerk, which may not fit too in the ideal. Yes, but I think that there is a difference: Wagner tried to come as close as possible to the Gesamtkustwerk ideal, while I cannot see such efforts from Kraftwerk. I can't see that the idealistic Gesamtkunstwerk is their ultimate goal, which they try to reach. If they have an ultimate goal, it appears to be rather the perfect harmony between men and machines than the perfect harmony between all artforms. > But OK, let's give this subject the proposed closure, and I'll use > some other term from Ralf, "Kraftwerk is the total concept." This could > generate a similar never ending discussion on what the "total" is ;-). No need to worry, I can live with the characterization of Kraftwerk being a total concept. > > Literally yes, but as a terminus technicus not. The term is commonly > > only used for music in which one tone is not repeated before the > > eleven other tones were used (very simplified definition, of course). > > Not correct. Yes, I tried to simplify this as much as possible (maybe too much), as I wanted to keep this sidelide discussion short. After all, it is not relevant to Kraftwerk at all. > >> It is the philosophy of KW, meeting scientists, computer-graphics > >> experts, and so on, that makes the concept one of "Global Art" or > >> Gesamtkunstwerk. > > NO!!! One of the most elementary aspects of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea > > is that all the elements of the complete work should be supplied by > > one and the same artist. Any cooperation with other people (Rebecca > > Allen, Maxime Schmitt, Francois Kevorkian etc.) is the exact opposite > > of a Gesamtkunstwerk concept. > > The cooperation is not in creation, I believe. Well, Rebecca Allen created a video for them, Maxime Schmitt supplied some lyrics and Francois Kevorkian did a couple of mixes. > >> Perhaps a simple "curiosity"? > > Perhaps, but it wasn't regarded as such from the critics. > > What have they said? "The 'Balanescu'/'Kraftwerk' play-in is a step back to breathing, to the body, and, as expected, warmth could be read, passion where formerly (with 'Kraftwerk') industrial technology ruled. But that was exactly the programme: Will robots become vulnerable again? (...) Is the string quartet, on it's part, now making "Kraftwerk" programme music? Must it be proven that even 200 year old wooden instruments can imitate the sounds from the autobahn? (Critics emphasize the amazing cello glissandi.) What do Kraftwerk think when they hear the Balanescu version of 'The Model', for example? Are the four chamber musicians not causing the 'Kraftwerk' metropolis project to tumble? Is merely house music (...) on the cards again after the wave of techno house music? The disparaging comments Kraftwerk made about the guitar anachronism of rock (...) seem to be forgotten. 'You can't play the music of the 20th century on medieval instruments', ' the music of the technical world can only be presented on instruments of the technical world'." (Quote from Edek Bartz / Birgit Flos: "Kraftwerk Unplugged? (A description of surfaces); in: Karl Gerbel / Peter Weigel: "Ars Electronica 1993: Genetische Kunst / Kuenstliches Leben"; Vienna 1993 And this was just one example... > >> it could, it should, be defined as "Gesamtkunst." > > It could be if the term "Gesamtkunstwerk" wasn't already occupied, it > > should be not since it *is* already occupied. > But Gesamtkunst is not a term in use, only Gesamtkunstwerk ;-). Ooops, yes, my mistake ;-) > >> I think KW is pretty sure ahead of the others, when the comparison > >> is possible and in the same periods. > > In a technological sense maybe, in a musical sense I don't think so, > > not after "The Man Machine" (and maybe "Computer World"). > > To put it in other terms, one album out of nine is below expectations Okay, but this one album is their most recent one, and it is now almost ten years old, and if we assume that it is mainly a reincarnation of the "Techno Pop" album, it is even thirteen years old. BTW: Personally I don't think that it was below expectations. IMHO it is an excellent album, I just don't want to call it "avant-garde". > We could develop on > this upon closure of the Gesamtkunstwerk situation and integrate it on > a technological discussion of KW, which would please many in this list, > surely. Please develop on this! Is this meant as a general or a personal request? If you meant this personal, I regret, since I think that other people here on the list are more competent than myself to discuss technological questions. Anyone willing to take over? :-) Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:56:52 +0100 Subject: Techno (Pop) Really-From: Paulo Mouat >>>> since electronic instruments provide an almost limitless freedom in >>>> timbre >>> This quote on a musician's maillist would be a sure candidate for a >>> flame war starter! >> I can't understand why. It is a trivial truth. We could develop on >> this upon closure of the Gesamtkunstwerk situation and integrate it >> on a technological discussion of KW, which would please many in this >> list, surely. Please develop on this! > Is this meant as a general or a personal request? If you meant this > personal, I regret, since I think that other people here on the list > are more competent than myself to discuss technological questions. > Anyone willing to take over? :-) Not strictly personal, obviously. Though I would like to know why do you think my first statement is a flame war starter, and only you can give precise motives for stating that. As a user of my own personal electronic music studio--which I'd rather call "a laboratory," a bit in the spirit of Clock Dva :-)--I think I could answer some questions on KW's/electronic instrument technology in the sense of producing and using this or that kind of sound and timbre. Interest on this was stated some time ago, and is a good lacking thread of discussion. The last paragraph is meant for all co-listers interested, of course. Best! (I can't believe the word "Gesamtkunstwerk" is absent from this post-- apart this occurrence :-D) - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 04:57:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: album cover Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, Just out of curiosity, is the original cover of the 1973 vinyl issue of the 'Ralf & Florian' album the same of the cover of the Germanofon bootleg CD issue? For those of you that don't have it, the CD's cover features an illustration overlooking a cityscape with a huge beam transmitter in the center. Below this illustration is the infamous 'Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) My final question regards track #4 from this album, "Heimatklange". I was listening to the CD on my CD-rom before and this particular track (as well as parts of "Ananas Symphonie") had a fuzzy overdriven type of sound to them. The sound was reminiscent of when the bass on a speaker overmodulates, causing the speaker cabinets to rattle a bit. This could just be due to the speakers I am using, so I wonder if any of you could clear me up on that one. Thanks for your time. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "The young man stepped into the hall of mirrors..." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #467 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #468 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Sunday, 18 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 468 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 14:37:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: album cover Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu >RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) My >final question regards track #4 from this album, "Heimatklange". I was >listening to the CD on my CD-rom before and this particular track (as well >as parts of "Ananas Symphonie") had a fuzzy overdriven type of sound to >them. The sound was reminiscent of when the bass on a speaker >overmodulates, causing the speaker cabinets to rattle a bit. This could >just be due to the speakers I am using, so I wonder if any of you could >clear me up on that one. Thanks for your time. Well, first thing I did when I woke up this morning was to throw my CD back into the CD-rom drive, but this time with a pair of headphones! ;o) Sure enough, no more fuzzy hissing sound on the tracks, so it turned out to be the Labtec speakers after all that were causing the overmodulation. Well, so much for the great fuzzy hissing caper. :o) Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Life is timeless....Europe Endless...." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 96 12:01 EST Subject: non stop bootleg ??? Really-From: dvrt@passport.ca (Dave Rout) i saw a boot called "non stop"...it was a double cd from the 1991 tour i think...does anybody out there know the quality of this recording??? thanks, dave " i'm the operator with my coffee percolator " ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:29:07 -0500 Subject: computertour question Really-From: Nthings@aol.com how rare is computertour on cd? how mutch is it worth? i found mine in the city in the bottom of a box for $15.00 (and it was still in plastic) did i get a good deal? "spot the rot" - ThE rEsidEnTs ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 19:41:23 +0000 Subject: Re: Techno (Pop) Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > >>>> since electronic instruments provide an almost limitless freedom in > >>>> timbre > >>> This quote on a musician's maillist would be a sure candidate for a > >>> flame war starter! > > I would like to know why do > you think my first statement is a flame war starter, and only you can > give precise motives for stating that. Well, it's just that I often notice that many musicians, especially the classical trained professional musicians, don't like electronic instruments, usually with comments like this: "Electronic instruments have no soul, no individuality. They can only reproduce what other people put into. They are cold, they can't express feelings" etc. etc. BTW: Here is a translated excerpt from a German interview with nobody else than Ralf Huetter: Q.: "What's your favourite instrument?" A.: "Good question." (Long silence) "The voice." Q.: "Very interesting. The computerized voice? The Vocoder-voice?" A.: "No! The human voice. There is no instrument or synthesizer with more sound modulations." (Frontpage 7-8/1991, p. 6-7) Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 18 Feb 96 14:37:12 EST Subject: Re: album cover Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > Just out of curiosity, is the original cover of the 1973 vinyl issue > of the 'Ralf & Florian' album the same of the cover of the Germanofon > bootleg CD issue? For those of you that don't have it, the CD's cover > features an illustration overlooking a cityscape with a huge beam > transmitter in the center. Below this illustration is the infamous > 'Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF > AM RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." The copies of the Germanofon release of 'R&F' have been nicely done, in terms of the packaging, IMHO, certainly by the standards of unofficial releases; I doubt that an official record label would have reproduced the 'musicomix' poster, for instance. The copies I have seen in shops tend to come with two inserts; 1. a single,double sided sheet of card. One side has a reproduction of the front cover design from the original German issue of the album. On the flip side is a reproduction of the UK ('circuit board') album cover design. The best of both worlds, the choice is yours! ;-) 2. a reproduction of the 'musicomix' insert that came with the original German vinyl LP pressing of the album. It is part 2 that you have, so it looks like you are missing the part that actually reproduces the outer sleeve design. :-( > This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM > RHEIN Klingt es bald..." In Pascal Bussy's book, 'Man, Machine and Music', it is translated thus; 'In Duesseldorf by the Rhine it resonates quickly'. Perhaps one of the lists German-speaking contributors can confirm this as accurate? > My final question regards track #4 from this album, "Heimatklange". > I was listening to the CD on my CD-rom before and this particular > track (as well as parts of "Ananas Symphonie") had a fuzzy overdriven > type of sound to them. The sound was reminiscent of when the bass on a > speaker overmodulates, causing the speaker cabinets to rattle a bit. I think that the sounds you are referring to are present on the original, some of the sounds are a bit like that, so not necessarily duff reproduction on the part of your speakers! Particularly in the case of 'Ananas Symphonie', there are many little sounds in the quieter sections in the opening few minutes of the track that you may take for granted as being suface noise from a vinyl LP, since that is the source of both this CD, but they are actually present on the original recording. Ian Calder ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:57:09 +0800 (U) Subject: RE: non stop bootleg ??? Really-From: "Freeman, Lon C." >i saw a boot called "non stop"...it was a double >cd from the 1991 tour i think...does anybody out >there know the quality of this recording??? >thanks, >dave >" i'm the operator with my coffee percolator " The quality is not bad for a boot. In my opinion it's got the best 'live' feel out of nearly all of the other boots out there. The crowd really gets into it and sings along on many of the numbers. Lon freeman@msmail.bms.com ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:34:42 +0000 Subject: In Duesseldorf am Rhein klingt es bald Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM > > RHEIN Klingt es bald..." > > In Pascal Bussy's book, 'Man, Machine and Music', it is translated thus; > 'In Duesseldorf by the Rhine it resonates quickly'. > Perhaps one of the lists German-speaking contributors can confirm this > as accurate? I think that "klingen" should be better translated as "to sound" instead of "to resonate", and "bald" means rather "soon" than "quickly". Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 18 Feb 96 18:06:36 EST Subject: Aktivitaet 7 - 'Autobahn - The Realeases' Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> 20 Years on the Autobahn - The Releases A Collectors Corner look at the multitude of versions available to collectors, by IAC From; Aktivitaet 7, September 1995 Please note; Aktivitaet is unofficial and has no connection with Kraftwerk and its current members. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The success of 'Autobahn', both the single and album, in the American charts ensured that the record would have been released in most parts of the world. With the American charts seen as the most lucrative and influential, it's a fair bet to say that achieving success there is to guarantee further exposure in other parts of the world. The record proves enduringly popular with collectors, not simply to add to their collection itself, but because I'm sure that in many cases this would have been the first taste of Kraftwerk and their 'industrielle volksmusik', never perhaps more aptly named than in this 22 minutes plus ode to the arteries of Germany's road system. A U T O B A H N S I N G L E S The initial release of 'Autobahn' on a single was in the USA it seems. The influential and famous producer Conny Plank, who engineered the 'Autobahn' album (as well as earlier Kraftwerk LP's) had this interesting snippet of info on the single, when interviewed in 1975 for 'Record Mirror' magazine; "It was the Chicago boss of Phonogram who cut the track down to three minutes. It was purely meant for radio promotion in the States but we were rather pleased when we heard it, that's exactly how we would have done it". It was a hit, perhaps with a certain novelty value - much column inches were devoted to the idea that it was some kind of Teutonic Beach Boys parody, based largely on the misinterpretation of the lyric to be heard as 'fun, fun, fun on the autobahn'. So, all single releases inevitably feature an edited version of the song. However, there are variations; the UK 7" single featured a chopped-up edit of the song, cramming a number of the various sections of the music into little over three minutes in length. The edit released on the US and German singles (which were adopted by the majority of other territories) feature a more sympathetic edit, that highlights one particular segment of the original opus. These then are the two main variations in edit. There are others though; the Spanish release for instance contains an edit that merely uses the first three and a quarter minutes of the track. When it comes to the choice of B side, most territories chose 'Morgenspaziergang', also from the 'Autobahn' album. There are again some exceptions, the UK release in particular, which used 'Kometenmelodie' (Part 1) instead. In general it seems that most countries issued a picture sleeve to accompany the single, with the UK, US, Canada and South Africa being the exceptions. If you come across any European issues, you can probably assume that it should come complete with a picture cover, unless it is a promo or test copy for instance. The majority of releases utilise the 'motorway painting' cover art of the album, though some of the later re-issues veered away from this design. Re-releases appeared in the UK, France and Germany on 7" and the German and French releases are rather collectable; both feature 'Kometenmelodie 2' as well as 'Autobahn'. The French re-issue is particularly sought after because it has a picture sleeve that uses the bands 'traffic cone' design as per their first two LP's. In terms of prices, copies that come with picture sleeves are probably the most sought after. The German 7" is always in demand but prices vary a great deal for this; you could easily pay anywhere between L10-L25 for a copy. The French release is rarer and tends to start upwards of L18 or so. The Spanish and Italian releases rarely seem to be on sale, so prices for these tend to be at the sellers discretion. There are two versions of the UK issue; originals come with silver inked paper labels. Later pressings have silver inked plastic injection moulded labels. The later pressings you could well find for between L2.50-L5. The paper label versions will probably set you back upwards of L5, maybe as much as L10. Neither version has a picture cover. Neither do any of the American issues. Prices for these vary, but should remain well under a tenner. Promo copies may well come with a higher asking price. A U T O B A H N A L B U M S In terms of the sleeve artwork I think we can divide the majority of releases into four variants; 1. The original 'motorway painting' sleeve; this has the colourful autobahn landscape painting as produced by Emil Schult, with the Mercedes and Volkswagen cars on an otherwise deserted autobahn, stretching into the lush, verdant hills, flanked by electricity pylons and the rising sun. On the original, there is a portion of a dashboard seen at the bottom, as if our view is from the vantage point of the front seat of a car. This version has the rather dated band pic on the back cover; Ralf, Florian, Klaus Roeder and Wolfgang Fluer crammed into the back seat of a Volkswagen Beetle. On some copies (Germany, France) the picture is colour tinted. On others (Australia, Holland) it is merely black and white. 2. Like the previously discussed release this uses the 'motorway painting' sleeve, but it has different graphics (USA, Japan, Canada) and some of the releases have a plain rear cover, with no band photo (Spain, later Japanese re-issue). 3. The 'road sign' illustration versions. In just blue and white, this has a reproduction of the familiar motorway road traffic sign we all know and love when driving down the motorway/autobahn/freeway/autopista (delete as appropriate). This was used for the original UK release and also on a later Italian re-issue. 4. The fourth version is what is used on all current releases. It is basically the original 'motorway painting' version, except that it has been updated now; the dashboard section at the foot of the sleeve has been removed altogether and the back of the sleeve features a black and white live pic of Kraftwerk c.1975/76. The inner sleeve to these versions feature the blue and white road sign illustration, so you get the best of both worlds! The lyric to the song, printed on original covers, has also been deleted. These are merely a rough grouping; most releases vary in some small way from one to the next. For instance, there are at least four Japanese vinyl LP issues to be found, all different in some way from each other! Then you get something like the Korean (?) issue, which resembles no other, what with its lack of Mercedes Benz! All versions of the LP, as far as I know, come with the same music on them, so collecting these items is essentially to do with their visual appeal. From the collectors point of view the German pressing of the LP seems to be always in demand. US and Canadian copies also seem to be asked a high price of. Otherwise, there is no general trend to collectability and pricing. Original copies of the LP on the Vertigo/Philips/Mercury labels tend to sell roughly between L15-L25. UK copies seem to start upwards of L8 or so. The first draft of this article listed all of the versions that I know of thus far for both singles and albums. Needless to say, it was quite some length! So, we'll take a look at a small selection of some of the more unusual and/or appealing of the releases available... C O L L E C T A B L E A U T O B A H N S I N G L E S 1. GERMAN ORIGINAL RELEASE (PHILIPS, 6003 438) One of the nicest 7" examples, this has an excellent, colour picture sleeve, the front of which has the 'motorway painting' sleeve art, but with larger, more prominent graphics in white. The sleeve makes much of the fact that it had already been a hit in the US; both front and back carry the 'US top LP' legend. The rear is mainly black with the blue and white 'road sign' logo. The edit used for this release is a 3.23 cut, the same as the edit used on the American 7" single. The slamming door and engine start up noises are rapidly joined by the music fading in. This edit does not cram as many of the various sections of the song into it as the UK one does and possibly benefits from this approach. The B side of the single is 'Morgenspaziergang'. There is a promo release too. Same music and such, but the labels are different and there's no picture sleeve. Much rarer. 2. SPANISH 7" (VERTIGO 61 47 009) This single does not appear for sale all that often. (It was recently spotted with a price of 175Dm in one catalogue!) The edit of the song on the disc is different to that used on the UK and German/US releases. It is in fact the first 3 minutes and 16 seconds or so of the LP version, so you get the full intro, with the electronic voice, which is largely edited out of the US/German edit. Further description of this release can be found in the Spanish 'Collectors Corner' article elsewhere in Aktivitaet 7. 3. JAPAN (VERTIGO SFL-2023) The Japanese 7" is probably the rarest example of 'Autobahn' on single, if you base this decision on the criteria of how often copies appear for sale. Not a lot of these going about nowadays! In actual fact, it is not all that different in comparison to other releases, certainly in comparison to the differences that later Japanese issues employed. With this being a Japanese release it comes with the record housed in a company sleeve, inside a thin plastic bag with a full colour picture insert. This insert features the same pic and graphics as the front of the German 7". In addition there are extra Japanese script graphics in red and white. The reverse of the insert is white with black text. It also has a small reproduction of the Japanese LP cover too. 4. FRANCE, 1976 RE-ISSUE 7" (VERTIGO, 6147 017) A very appealing and in-demand 7" single, chiefly because of the picture sleeve design. The front features the familiar 'traffic cone' logo to be found on the bands first two German LP's, so this sleeve very much resembles a miniaturised version of 'Kraftwerk 1'. Cute. The rear of the sleeve, is like the original French 7" release of this single, plain white with just a large Vertigo logo. Prices for this 7" tend to be sky-high, I've seen L65 asked for this in the past. More realistically, you will probably be looking at a minimum of L20 for a copy, unless its your lucky day. In actual fact, 'Kometenmelodie 2' is the A side of this single, 'Autobahn' the flip. This time around, the UK edit of the track is used, not the German/US edit that was used for the original French 7". (Sleeve illustration can be found in Aktivitaet 6, page 43.) 5. THAILAND (4 TRACK STEREO RECORDS, FT223) Definitely a contender for the most unusual appearance of 'Autobahn' on a 7" is a release from Thailand . A four track 7" EP, it features the German/US edit as the fourth track. The other three tracks are; 'One More Tomorrow' by Henry Gross, 'You Need Love' by Styx and 'Bloody Well Right' by Supertramp. Hmmmmm... Even less of a sympathetic bed-mate is that the picture cover features a colour pic of Status Quo on the front! 6. UK 7" (VERTIGO, 6147 012) Last but not least, the humble UK issue. OK, so there's no pic sleeve but it does feature the unmistakable UK edit. Realistically, you're unlikely to come across that snazzy little French 7" with the traffic cone sleeve, so if you want to get the same edit that's on that, but cheaper, then buy the UK issue. Yup, the same edit that you've probably heard on the rare occasions that you actually hear 'Autobahn' played on the radio, in th UK anyway. The UK single has 'Kometenmelodie 1' as its B side, which is another oddity. Original copies have paper labels, later ones plastic moulded labels. The choice is yours. (Some argue that injection-moulded pressings are of a poorer sound quality due to more 'rumble'being present'.) If you really must have a picture sleeve, then you could go for the rather tacky re-issue that appeared in 1981 (Vertigo 'Classic Cuts' series, CUT108). Debate still rages on as to whether it is a UK issue pressed in France or a full blown French release. Whatever, it features the UK edit of 'Autobahn' on one side and 'Classical Gas' by Vertigo stablemates Beggars Opera on the other. The picture sleeve has a Classic Cuts design - it's in Aktivitaet 5 on page 37 if you want to see it. It has also been mentioned that there is a 1986 US 12" promo single with 'Autobahn' on it, released to stir up some extra interest in the 'Electric Cafe' LP, but as yet I have no further information to qualify this as real. If it does exist, then you can certainly bet it will be collectable. Anybody with any info, please get in touch. C O L L E C T A B L E A U T O B A H N A L B U M S 1. UK ORIGINAL ISSUE (VERTIGO 6360 620) If you're going to add a vinyl copy of 'Autobahn' to your collection then why not start with the original UK issue ? This has the blue and white 'road sign' sleeve, which was unique to the UK. The earlier copies have a 'raised surface' effect, so that the road sign stands out a bit on the sleeve. The labels feature the colourful 'spaceship' Vertigo design. Obviously the later, flat textured sleeves will not be worth quite as much; in theory, anyway. The rear of the cover is like the front (so there is no band pic at all on this issue) but with all the track details, credits etc. and even the songs lyric. 2. ORIGINAL GERMAN ISSUE (PHILIPS, 6305 231) The original German issue has the much more colourful 'motorway painting' sleeve to the front and the 'band in the back seat of a Beetle' pic on the rear, tinted in colour. In actual fact, there's a bit of photographic trickery going on; only Wolfgang Fluer's head is in the picture; the body belongs to Emil Schult! There is a blue and white 'road sign' sticker on the front cover too. Most copies have dark blue paper labels with silver print, but there are also copies with black labels too, which are probably rarer. Original releases can tend to be a bit pricey. Also worth pointing out is that the record cover is very glossy, but this kind of laminate can peel off in places, with age, so watch for that if buying. Promo copies of the LP also exist, with white label 'Musterplatte' designs. These are far scarcer and thus more expensive. 3. ITALIAN RE-ISSUE (PHILIPS, 9279 459) The original Italian release (Philips, 6305 231) has much in common with the German issue. Far more interesting is a later re-issue in the 'Successo'/Rock Giants series (Philips, 9279 459). This has a totally altered sleeve; the back cover reveals a number of the other releases in the series, so the covers for all resemble each other in terms of layout. The graphics are totally different from any other 'Autobahn' release and the graphic element used is the blue and white 'road sign' design, as per the UK. The rear has a large amount of text, mainly an essay on Kraftwerk, woven into the design along with small reproductions of other releases in the series. These differences add up to an very appealing collectable, the scarcity and price reflecting this; find a copy first, then worry about the price! (You can see a pic of this cover on page 30, Aktivitaet 7.) 4. KOREAN(?) LP (CAPUZ/SHILLA, SCL-1023) If you want a really different angle then look out for 'THE WORLD OF KRAFTWERK'. I believe this is a Korean release, though maybe not. Something of an oddity, it is actually the 'Autobahn' LP, given this new title. The sleeve is a bit different too; it has the 'motorway painting' pic as per the 1985 re-issues but the Mercedes has been removed! The back cover features a lightened image of the front with all the titles/credits over this. There are some misprints in these credits; Frolian Schneider?! There is a sticker on the rear too with the track titles in both English and Korean I think. Amongst a section of the Korean text at the top of this box the word Technopop stands out! The small print at the bottom mentions that the LP has passed censorship by The Ministry of Culture Information - maybe it was they who didn't approve of the Mercedes! 5. AUSTRALIAN EMI RE-ISSUE (EMI EMC 203) The original Australian/New Zealand issue (Vertigo) resembles the German LP, but the back pic is black and white, not tinted. Stranger though is a later issue from this quarter; the Australian/New Zealand issue on EMI. This appeared long before the 1985 re-issues (I bought my own copy in January of 1984 for instance, but it had already been available for a while.). More intriguingly, the sleeve is as per the original release, with the rather dated band pic still present and correct on the rear. However the record is on EMI (EMC 203) and has cream coloured EMI design labels. Quite why this re-issue sneaked out before the amended 1985 one is a mystery. One wonders if it is the same as was the intended 1982 re-issue by EMI in the UK? A UK re- issue on EMI was first announced for release in May of 1982 but it was not until 1985 that such a release appeared... So, this release may well be the only example of an EMI release in the original, unamended sleeve design. 6. ORIGINAL JAPANESE RELEASE (VERTIGO RJ 7010) Dating from 1975, this has the 'motorway painting' sleeve design but it has different graphics for the titles on the front. There is also an additional insert sheet which features extensive Japanese text and also a couple of early live pictures of Ralf and Florian too. Japanese releases are always collectable, so this is another LP that will probably be pricey, later Japanese albums seem to have a habit of selling for upwards of L20, so you would expect this to cost at least the same, if not more so. There are actually two more such Japanese releases from the 70's; Vertigo, BT5191 is a re-issue from 1978 as part of a 'Rock Super Collection' series, same series but with a different insert sheet; Philips, BT8103 is a re-issue from 1979, this time there is no band pic on the back, it being replaced with text in Japanese, so there's no insert either. A U T O B A H N O N C O M P I L A T I O N A L B U M S 'Autobahn', with its place in Kraftwerk history as their most famous and well known track, appears on all of the various compilation albums milked by their various record companies from their early era, except for one of the French LP's ('Kometenmelodie 2 - Atout Collection'). These LP's use a variety of edits of the track. There is a French double compilation LP that even has the title of 'Autobahn'. Similarly, a German compilation in the Pop Lions series borrows this title too. Even odder, there is the Italian LP that crams all of the 'Autobahn' LP AND 'Kohoutek 1' onto one side of an LP, with 'Kraftwerk 2' on the other! Needless to say, most of the tracks are severely edited. Further details on these unusual and rather hard to find LP's can be found in the article 'Compilation and on and on...', originally featured in issue 2, now to be found in updated form in the 'Retro 1' issue. In addition, you can expect 'Autobahn' to also turn on various artists compilation LPs too, since it was an international hit, but these would be too numerous to list here, quite apart from the fact that we don't know the half of them anyway! A U T O B A H N C O M P A C T D I S C S CD issues of the album appeared in the mid-late eighties. The German issue (EMI Electrola, CDP 564-7461532) and the UK issue (EMI, CDP 7 46153 2) are both extremely similar, mainly because the UK release copied the German artwork, even down to the fact that they have failed to remove the EMI Electrola logo from the packaging! (This version will be replaced by a re-issued version due just as this issue is going to print.*) This is based on the 1985 re-issue cover for the front and the rear of the case has the black and white live pic, much darker and with track titles printed onto it. The insert features an elongated blue and white road sign design in its middle section. The nicest CD to collect is probably the US edition, because it originally came packaged in the now discontinued "long box" packaging. I believe that there are two issues on Elektra, cat no."s 7559 60797-2 and 9 25326-2. The long box features one half of the 1985 re-issue cover on the front and the other half on the back. Inside, there is the standard CD case with similar packaging to the other CD releases. There is also a Japanese CD, EMI, CP32-5609, though I do not have much details about this issue. * It has since appeared - unaltered! - - E N D - ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 01:25:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Versions of 'The Model' compilation Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu >Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > >IMHO, I would doubt it - the Cleopatra label's handling of Kraftwerk, >their artwork and implied ideas seems somewhat unsympathetic - that they >erased all of the deliberate constructivist-inspired artwork from their >re-release of 'The Man Machine' is a case in point. To discard such a >key element of the original 'package' suggests that the label may not be >too interested in the numerous idealogical tangents that Kraftwerk's >work involves. So, it seems unlikley that they may be aware of the Lang >inspiration and thereby wand it into a sleeve design, but you never know >I guess... Those of us who have seen the Cleopatra re-issue of 'The Man-Machine' know that the front cover of the CD features an extreme close-up shot of only the heads of the 4 members of KW lined up one behind the next, facing towards the right. Today I saw the Capitol re-issue of 'The Man-Machine' that contains the re-mastered artwork. The cover of this CD featured the 4 members of KW presented in full bodily form down to the pants, standing at a slightly different angle than that of the one on the Cleopatra release. In adddition, this new Capitol re-issue also featured the actual German text on the front cover ('Die Mensch Machine', etc...), which I would assume was taken directly from the original German vinyl issue of the album. Does anyone who has this new Capitol re-issue know if the cover is identical to the original album from 1978? Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "We're charging our batteries..." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #468 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #469 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Monday, 19 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 469 Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 22:24:16 -0500 Subject: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: mach25@indy.net (becker fred) Ian Calder wrote: It is part 2 that you have, so it looks like you are missing the part that actually reproduces the outer sleeve design. :-( I am also missing the cover art insert from Ralf & Florian. I thought it might be missing, but I bought the CD anyway. Hopefully someone might find a supply of these someday? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 04:58:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu >Really-From: mach25@indy.net (becker fred) > > >>Ian Calder wrote: It is part 2 that you have, so it looks like you are >>missing the part that actually reproduces the outer sleeve design. :-( > >I am also missing the cover art insert from Ralf & Florian. I thought it >might be missing, but I bought the CD anyway. Hopefully someone might find >a supply of these someday? > I mentioned previously that my Germanofon issue CD of 'Ralf & Florian' contains a front cover illustration of a cityscape with a transmitter and the German text "In Dusseldorf am rhein~ Klingt: es bald". Just underneath that drawing is a picture of the 'Kraftwerk cone'. Since you mentioned that this issue of the CD is missing the original artwork, what does the original album cover look like, and where does the blue cone fit into the original record? On the Germanofon CD, the compact disc itself contains a blue traffic cone, following in the traditions of the 2 prior discs ('Kraftwerk' - red, 'Kraftwerk 2' - green). Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "You are so close, but far away..." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #469 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #470 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Tuesday, 20 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 470 KW1, KW2 of R And F???? Re: KW1, KW2 of R And F???? Re: 'Ralf & Florian' sleeve designs Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:55:42 -0500 Subject: KW1, KW2 of R And F???? Really-From: Nthings@aol.com what is the best to buy first Kraft1 kraft2 of raulf and floran???????//////////... "RIZZZZZZZZ WEASELS RIPPED MY FLESH" - zApPa ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 17:57:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: KW1, KW2 of R And F???? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 09:55 AM 2/19/96 -0500, Nthings@aol.com wrote: >what is the best to buy first Kraft1 kraft2 of raulf and >floran???????//////////... > >"RIZZZZZZZZ WEASELS RIPPED MY FLESH" - zApPa For the Kraftwerk fan who is only well-versed in KW's material *after* 1974, the first 3 albums will seem like quite a departure indeed. 'Kraftwerk', 'Kraftwerk 2', and 'Ralf & Florian' all often contain lengthy mood pieces that border on ambient. In fact, the track "KlingKlang" is over 17 minutes long! There are no lyrics present on any of these recordings except for an electronic voice which gently mouths out "Ananas Symphonie" on the 6th track of the 'Ralf & Florian' album. Personally, some of my all-time favorite KW material comes from these 3 albums, including tracks like "Kristallo", "Megaherz", "Ruckzuck", and so on... Chronologically speaking, I suppose it would make the most sense to start the collection with the first album 'Kraftwerk' from 1970. However, this would eventually have to be followed by the other 2 albums in your collection, because they are like sequels to an epic movie. At least, that's how I often think of them. :o) Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "I program my home computer...beam myself into the future..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: 19 Feb 96 14:32:08 EST Subject: Re: 'Ralf & Florian' sleeve designs Really-From: Ian Calder <101460.571@compuserve.com> > Since you mentioned that this issue of the CD is missing the original > artwork,what does the original album cover look like, and where does the > blue cone fit into the original record? The blue and white coloured traffic cone has no relevance to the original LP sleeves of 'Ralf and Florian', as on the covers of 'R&F' the traffic cone is red and white, not blue and white. Most of the worldwide releases of the 'Ralf and Florian' LP had sleeve designs based on the German release. i.e. the front of the sleeve has a black and white photo of Ralf and Florian together*. The familiar Kraftwerk traffic cone and stencilled logo is above the photo, in the middle. The cone is red and white coloured, the Kraftwerk logo is black. The rest of the titles are rendered in a very Germanic typeface. The rear of the sleeve has a colour pic of Ralf and Florian seated in an early incarnation of Kling Klang, you get a good view of the equipment that must have been used to make the album. This picture seems to be used on the rear of almost all the worldwide releases, but sometimes only in black and white (e.g. the Canadian issue), and also on the back cases of the CD issues. The UK version of the album cover had a totally different front cover. Instead of the pic of R&F, which wasn't used at all on this sleeve, there is a gold coloured printed circuit board design, raised texture. The stencilled KRAFTWERK logo is at the top, to the left, and the 'Ralf and Florian' title is in a more modern sans-serif typeface. Again, it is raised print and the ink is a very bright red colour. So, this version of the sleeve has little in common with the German one. However, the rear of the sleeve is pretty much identical to the rear of the German one. The US version of the sleeve is very much as per the German one, though one key difference is that there are also English language translations against each of the track titles. * Ralf is pictured with long hair and glasses, like earlier album photo's. Florian however is in prototype form for the later Kraftwerk image. He is pictured in a suit and tie and on his lapel we can see his musical note brooch. When you think of it, there is little difference between this picture and the photo from the front of the German issue of 'TEE', as far as Florian's image goes; pictured in black and white against a light, curtained backdrop, Florian's suit and tie are different colours, otherwise very similar, even down to the brooch detail. > On the Germanofon CD, the compact disc itself contains a blue traffic > cone, following in the traditions of the 2 prior discs ('Kraftwerk' - > red, 'Kraftwerk 2' - green). Yes, the CD releases have renderred the traffic cone logo's in different colours, which is a nice touch but not actually representative of the original releases. It's not that I want to be trainspotterish about it! - but the traffic cone on the original 'Kraftwerk (1)' LP is actually dayglo-orange, *not* the red of the CD release! :-) Ian Calder ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 15:24:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: jrichey@menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu (John M Richey) Hello As per the discussion of the missing sleeve art, if you would like to see the origial art it is available on the Infobahr server. However, this is not sleeve art you are talking about. The original cover of R&F is Ralf and Florian in B&W, and the back is a picutre of the KlingKlang Studio. The art you are talking about is on a poster contained inside, an eight-gate foldout with the drawing of Du:sseldorf, a series or cartoons about R&F in the studio, and drawings pertaining to each song on the album. I scanned the art some time back and gave it to Anders for all to see, because I had heard that no one had ever seen this original poster, deisgned by Emil Schult and it is a real tribute to early KW style. Unfortunately I did not scan the whole poster, it was just too much work, and it is quite fragile considering how old it is. Yours John P.S. My R&F CD does not have the art either. If anybody knows how to get a hold of this copy again I would like to order it. This means that they used the Phillips recording and perhaps it sounds better than the one I have. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:39:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 03:24 PM 2/19/96 -0500, jrichey@menger.eecs.stevens-tech.edu (John M Richey)wrote: >P.S. My R&F CD does not have the art either. If anybody knows how to get >a hold of >this copy again I would like to order it. This means that they used the >Phillips >recording and perhaps it sounds better than the one I have. The Germanofon issue of the 'Ralf & Florian' CD that I have does not contain the original German black & white cover photo that was mentioned, but it does contain Emil Schult's full artwork and musicomix inside the CD booklet. The back of the CD, as Ian Calder mentioned, features the full-color photo of Ralf & Florian sitting inside an early KlingKlang Studios, surrounded by their musical equipment and their neon-lit names. For those of you interested in purchasing this issue of the CD, it can be ordered from an on-line company called CDnow! Check them out by running a search on them through Yahoo. I purchased this CD from them about a year ago and it cost around $25.00 at the time. Maybe a little high priced for a single CD with only 6 tracks, but Kraftwerk's worth it. :o) Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "I am adding and subtracting..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 00:04:25 -0500 Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: slang@madison.k12.wi.us (SolVenT) >>P.S. My R&F CD does not have the art either. If anybody knows how to get >>a hold of >>this copy again I would like to order it. This means that they used the >>Phillips >>recording and perhaps it sounds better than the one I have. > > The Germanofon issue of the 'Ralf & Florian' CD that I have does not >contain the original German black & white cover photo that was mentioned, >but it does contain Emil Schult's full artwork and musicomix inside the CD >booklet. The back of the CD, as Ian Calder mentioned, features the >full-color photo of Ralf & Florian sitting inside an early KlingKlang >Studios, surrounded by their musical equipment and their neon-lit names. >For those of you interested in purchasing this issue of the CD, it can be >ordered from an on-line company called CDnow! Check them out by running a >search on them through Yahoo. I purchased this CD from them about a year >ago and it cost around $25.00 at the time. Maybe a little high priced for a >single CD with only 6 tracks, but Kraftwerk's worth it. :o) Hello. I am Jon and new to this list. Today I purchased the original Vertigo release of Ralf & Florian for $3 on vinyl. I got it at a Half Price Books store. They were selling all there records for half off. I would've gladly paid $5.98 for it but half off was even better. My day was made. Also I got The Man Machine for half of $4.98 on vinyl and the Mercury Records(I think it's Mercury) release of Autobahn on vinyl for half of $4.98. The Virtigo of that would have been better but i'm not complaining. Basically I paid about $8 for stuff that is worth who knows how much. I guess that is my question. How much are those vinyls worth, if I may ask? Maybe i'll go over to the west side store later this week. They might have 1 and 2, but I doubt it. I don't think these silly stores know much about Kraftwerk if they are selling original releases for a few bucks but maybe I don't know as much about Kraftwerk as I would like to believe I do. Anyway, if you have any worth info or would just like to bitch me out for being a braggy little twit, go ahead. "she's our model and she's looking good" JoN ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #470 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #471 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Wednesday, 21 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 471 Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? WTB: KW1, KW2, AND R AND F ON VYNL Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Car Tape Compilation Re: Car Tape Compilation How to obtain bootleg CDs? (was: Re: Car Tape Compilation) Why is Cleopatra priced higher? Re: How to obtain bootleg CDs? (was: Re: Car Tape Compilation) Re: How to obtain bootleg CDs? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:35:17 -0500 Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com I don't know how much they are worth, but I bought Kraftwerk 1 and 2 double Vertigo album for $24 on vinyl in San Diego once. The cover of that is a blue sound wave on an oscilliscope...and the inside is the same as Kraftwerk 2 CD. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:08:05 -0500 Subject: WTB: KW1, KW2, AND R AND F ON VYNL Really-From: Nthings@aol.com will anyone sell KW1 KW2 or R and F on vynl>>??? if so e mail me with price and condition. thanks, Nate ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:36:29 +0000 () Subject: Re: Ralf & Florian CD--Who else is missing the insert? Really-From: Brian MacDonald First off, just want to say that I just joined and am ecstatic that we're talking about the early stuff! Not that the later material is at all bad but I recently purchased the first three CDs and have them in my head right now. In fact, if you guys are also into groups like Can, Neu!, Faust, Amon Duul ( and II), Guru Guru, etc. you can join the "krautrock" list. Just send the phrase "subscribe isi " in a message body to majordomo@falco.kuci.uci.edu. [Example: "subscribe isi kdinger440@aol.com"] Regarding, R+F, the version I have is not the Germonafon, whereas the versions I have of Kraftwerk and Kraftwerk2 are. Sure, I can make out the pops in the vinyl mastering, but the quality is very bearable. Yes, this one does have the B&W photo in front, has the blue street cone under a clear CD tray, etc. However, this CD also contains a nifty bonus track. A live recording of "Autobahn" from 1975. Again, the quality of the live recording isn't optimal but bearable. The bonus track is 27 minutes long.. making for a roughly 65 minute CD. Not bad. K!z!K "You're ridiculous." -- amyzzz ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 14:49:30 -0500 Subject: Car Tape Compilation Really-From: mach25@indy.net (becker fred) Since we are talking about experiences listening to Kraftwerk in cars, here is the playlist for a 90-minute compilation I've listened to on many long trips. It has given me great pleasure over the years. I'd like to see what some of you have put together for your own car tapes. This one features early Kraftwerk along with some of the other greats. Most pieces were produced by Conny Plank. TO BE PLAYED AT MAXIMUM VOLUME SIDE 1 Harmonia Deluxe (Immer Wieder) Deluxe Neu Isi Neu 75 Kraftwerk Elektrisches Roulette Ralf & Florian Harmonia Dino Musik Von Kraftwerk Kling Klang (less bells intro) Kraftwerk Kraftwerk Tanzmusik Ralf & Florian Kraftwerk Ananas Symphonie (fade out) Ralf & Florian SIDE 2 Cluster Hollywood Zuckerzeit Michael Rother Fontana Di Luna Sterntaler Cluster Sowiesoso Sowiesoso Neu E-Musik (less wind intro & end) Neu 75 Neu See Land Neu 75 Harmonia Notre Dame Deluxe La Dusseldorf Rheinita Viva ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 96 15:52:31 EST Subject: Re: Car Tape Compilation Really-From: peballen@ENG.APPL.GE.COM (pat ballenger) > Really-From: mach25@indy.net (becker fred) > > > Since we are talking about experiences listening to Kraftwerk in cars, here > is the playlist for a 90-minute compilation I've listened to on many long > trips. It has given me great pleasure over the years. I'd like to see what > some of you have put together for your own car tapes. This one features > early Kraftwerk along with some of the other greats. Most pieces were > produced by Conny Plank. > > TO BE PLAYED AT MAXIMUM VOLUME > > SIDE 1 > > Harmonia Deluxe (Immer Wieder) Deluxe > Neu Isi Neu 75 > Kraftwerk Elektrisches Roulette Ralf & Florian > Harmonia Dino Musik Von > Kraftwerk Kling Klang (less bells intro) Kraftwerk > Kraftwerk Tanzmusik Ralf & Florian > Kraftwerk Ananas Symphonie (fade out) Ralf & Florian > > SIDE 2 > > Cluster Hollywood Zuckerzeit > Michael Rother Fontana Di Luna Sterntaler > Cluster Sowiesoso Sowiesoso > Neu E-Musik (less wind intro & end) Neu 75 > Neu See Land Neu 75 > Harmonia Notre Dame Deluxe > La Dusseldorf Rheinita Viva > > Where can I mail order some of this material? I've never heard of any of these. - Pat Ballenger ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 19:58:38 EST Subject: How to obtain bootleg CDs? (was: Re: Car Tape Compilation) Really-From: kraftwerk@MIT.EDU > Where can I mail order some of this material? I've never heard of any > of these. - Pat Ballenger I too would like to know how to obtain bootleg CDs at the prices I read of on this list. So far I have had only one chance to buy one. Last week I called a place who had two versions of Tour de France on CD. They had digitally remastered the tracks and the original person who commissioned them was supposedly "very satisfied with the quality of the sound." Sounds promising, right? The price: $85 + $6 shipping and insurance. I may be a Kraftwerk addict, but I do have a budget constraint. Where can I get more-reasonably-priced CDs? I would be especially happy about specific sources. Henning Colsman-Freyberger kraftwerk@mit.edu http://web.mit.edu/henning/www/ ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 04:48:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Why is Cleopatra priced higher? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, We've had a bit of discussion on this list lately regarding the Cleopatra CD re-issues of the three KW albums from 1975-1978, as well as the new Capitol CD re-issues of the same three albums with the re-mastered artwork. My question is, why has every source I've seen sell the Cleopatra versions for a few dollars more than the newer Capitol ones? I recall many people mentioning a while back that the Cleopatra CDs had poor sound quality, so why would they cost more than the Capitol versions with the re-mastered artwork that more accurately depicts the actual album covers? Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "When airwaves swing, distant voices sing..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 04:48:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: How to obtain bootleg CDs? (was: Re: Car Tape Compilation) Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 07:58 PM 2/20/96 -0500, kraftwerk@MIT.EDU wrote: >I too would like to know how to obtain bootleg CDs at the prices I read of >on this list. So far I have had only one chance to buy one. Last week I called >a place who had two versions of Tour de France on CD. They had digitally >remastered the tracks and the original person who commissioned them was >supposedly "very satisfied with the quality of the sound." Sounds promising, >right? The price: $85 + $6 shipping and insurance. I may be a Kraftwerk addict, >but I do have a budget constraint. Where can I get more-reasonably-priced CDs? >I would be especially happy about specific sources. > >Henning Colsman-Freyberger >kraftwerk@mit.edu >http://web.mit.edu/henning/www/ I believe I mentioned this before, but here it is again. For those of you who are weary about trusting an on-line CD store, fear not. If you seek the Germanofon bootleg issues of 'Kraftwerk', 'Kraftwerk 2', or 'Ralf & Florian', and you're willing to pay around $27.00 for each, there is an on-line store called CDnow! that has them. I purchased my copy of 'Ralf & Florian' from them and was most pleased with their service. Check out their site by plugging in at your local URL. I believe they also have a couple of other live bootlegs in stock in addition to several of the officially released KW discs as well. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "I'm the operator with my pocket calculator..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 23:43:32 -0500 Subject: Re: How to obtain bootleg CDs? Really-From: slang@madison.k12.wi.us (SolVenT) > I believe I mentioned this before, but here it is again. For those >of you who are weary about trusting an on-line CD store, fear not. If you >seek the Germanofon bootleg issues of 'Kraftwerk', 'Kraftwerk 2', or 'Ralf & >Florian', and you're willing to pay around $27.00 for each, there is an >on-line store called CDnow! that has them. I purchased my copy of 'Ralf & >Florian' from them and was most pleased with their service. Check out their >site by plugging in at your local URL. I believe they >also have a couple of other live bootlegs in stock in addition to several of >the officially released KW discs as well. Hello everyone. To me $27 seems allright but I would really do some serious looking around at used record shops for those albums before I paid that much for the cds. Like I said yesterday, I just recently bought Ralf & Florian on Verigo vinyl for $6(actually it was half of 6 because all the records were half off). You never know, maybe just recently somebody was cleaning out there record collection and just went to a shop and sold there KW collection for pennies. Some of these shops don't seem to know how much to ask for old rare stuff on vinyl. Paying $3 for a hard to get record has gotten me thinking alot about checking every record store in town. It's kind of like using a metal detector or something. Good luck to any who search. JoN ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #471 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #472 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 22 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 472 The Telephone Call Re: The Telephone Call ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 15:03:34 +0100 (MET) Subject: The Telephone Call Really-From: Thomas Weckert Has anybody on MTV or VIVA Kraftwerk's video of "The Telephone Call" recorded? Thomas tweckert@ernie.mi.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:49:39 -0500 Subject: Re: The Telephone Call Really-From: ChipLamb@aol.com >Really-From: Thomas Weckert > > >Has anybody on MTV or VIVA Kraftwerk's video of "The Telephone Call" >recorded? > >Thomas >tweckert@ernie.mi.uni-koeln.de Please let us know when it plays! I would tape it, and am sure others would too. If anyone else has this info. do not be ashamed to let it fly! From all of us to all of you "Eins, zwei, drei, vier..." William "Chip" Lamb ChipLamb@aol.com ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #472 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #473 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Friday, 23 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 473 telephone call Re: telephone call WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 17:30:19 +0100 Subject: Really-From: F.Meijer@student.frw.ruu.nl (Frank Meijer) Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM >RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) It means something like: "in Dusseldorf at the Rhine. sounds. it soon" Frank ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 12:24:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: telephone call Really-From: carpe noctem hi - i have "the telephone call" video on tape (along with "musique non-stop"). there was a guy on here about a year ago selling kraftwerk video compilations and i got a copy of that, too. it has lots of interesting stuff on it... ______________________________ jwgrote@silver.ucs.indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:20:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: telephone call Really-From: Omega > Really-From: carpe noctem > > i have "the telephone call" video on tape (along with "musique > non-stop"). there was a guy on here about a year ago selling kraftwerk > video compilations and i got a copy of that, too. it has lots of > interesting stuff on it... I wonder if that was me? I was offering a tape that included four Kraftwerk videos, and I filled the tape up with other 'related' videos (artists who've been influenced by the band--John Foxx, FM and others). Anyone who wants more info can e-mail me. --Omega > > ______________________________ > jwgrote@silver.ucs.indiana.edu > > omega@io.org small sig, eh? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:45:31 -0500 Subject: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 KW2 or R and F on vynl?? - -Nate ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:46:12 -0500 Subject: WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i want kraftwerk 1, kraftwerk 2 and raulf and flaurin on record e mail me ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 01:43:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 04:45 PM 2/22/96 -0500, Nthings@aol.com wrote: >i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like >Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the >question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 >being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 >KW2 or R and F on vynl?? >-Nate For starters, I should think that it is an extremely difficult task to *rate* any Kraftwerk album. That would be as if someone asked me what my favorite Kraftwerk song is, in which case I would be at a loss. No Kraftwerk material is garbage. The only thing I can tell you (which I've mentioned in a previous posting) is that the transition from KW's early albums like 'Kraftwerk 2' to their more commercial releases like 'The Man-Machine' and 'Computer World' is somewhat large. If you're considering picking up 'Kraftwerk 2', do not expect to hear formally structured songs with robotic voices and synth dance beats. The songs on 'Kraftwerk 2', like their predecessors, I would best desribe as 'minimalist instrumental mood pieces'. The opening song, 'Klingklang', runs a full 17 minutes and 36 seconds. The other 5 tracks are considerably shorter, but are still very experimental in their nature. Personally, I love this album, but then again, I love them all. :o) The Germanofon issue of the CD that you mentioned is packaged nicely, includes the full musicomix and drawings from the original LP, the full color photo of Ralf & Florian in KlingKlang Studio with their equipment on the back, and has decent sound quality too. It is well worth $15.75. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "We start to move - and we break the glass!" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 18:20:46 +0000 () Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: Brian MacDonald Ur... well it depends on how open minded you are, really. The only track on "Kraftwerk 2" which foreshadows to things to come is the 17+ minute long "Klingklang", and that's just to a certain degree. "Kraftwerk 2" is dark, somber, and low... nothing like ANY other release they've had (including "Kraftwerk" and "Ralf+Florian"). There are hardly any beats whatsoever on all the songs save "Klingklang". Lots of atmosphere via bass guitars... the last track "Harmonika" is haunting because of its simple instrumentation -- a seemingly cheap accordian surprisingly! There's not much that is upbeat here. "Kraftwerk 2" sounds NOTHING like "Kraftwerk", "Ralf+Florian", and hence the later albums. It's pretty much in a league of its own. If you like current darker avant artists like Gastr Del Sol and Tortoise, then I wholeheartedly recommend "Kraftwerk 2". It might take a while to grow on you, but I consider "Kraftwerk 2" to be a gem of an album.. you just have to be in the right mood for it. If you have "Autobahn","Man Machine", etc. I'd try your hands at "Ralf+Florian" first... Just remember the Germonafon version sounds better but the B&W Photo version has the live bonus track ("Autobahn") and sounds OK too. K!z!K "You stand behind me... with a TV and a keyboard that someone has lent... you. You're good at standing still. I am good at singing. We love it. It pays our rent." -- Raw Sex ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 04:32:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 06:20 PM 2/22/96 +0000, Brian MacDonald wrote: >The only track on "Kraftwerk 2" which foreshadows to things to come is >the 17+ minute long "Klingklang", and that's just to a certain degree. Sorry to be so critical of your criticism, but I don't think it's fair to say that "Klingklang" is the only track which foreshadows the things to come. 'Kraftwerk 2' is a total work in and of itself, and each track on it interacts with the other KW recordings (past and future) in their own particular manners. >"Kraftwerk 2" is dark, somber, and low... nothing like ANY other release >they've had (including "Kraftwerk" and "Ralf+Florian"). >"Kraftwerk 2" sounds NOTHING like "Kraftwerk", "Ralf+Florian", and hence >the later albums. It's pretty much in a league of its own. This is where I *really* have to disagree with you. I find that 'Kraftwerk 2' is right in league with its predecessor ('Kraftwerk') and 'Ralf & Florian' as well. For example, "Strom" (1972) is a prime example of an ambient textural mood piece sans drums, in the same genre of other album's tracks like "Megaherz" (1970), "Kometenmelodie 1" (1974), "Mitternacht" (1974), etc. I can clearly see an evolution present in the recordings of KW. Over the years, their music transformed from a state of lengthy, instrumental, experimental mood pieces to shorter, much more structured, dance-oriented pop numbers. The mid-point or crossover appears to take place somewhere around the 'Radio-Activity' (1975). All Kraftwerk recordings can be said to be in a class by themselves, but to isolate 'Kraftwerk 2' as different from the rest seems to me to be not necessarily the case. >atmosphere via bass guitars... the last track "Harmonika" is haunting >because of its simple instrumentation -- a seemingly cheap accordian >surprisingly! Accordian? As far as I know, Ralf Hutter played a harmonika (or literally "mouth organ") on this track, hence the title. In fact, you'll find that the accordian is not credited anywhere on the album's sleeve as part of the instrumentation used on this recording, and the 'Harmonika' is listed as one of the instruments played by Hutter on this album. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Turn the dials with your hand..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:54:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Really-From: gewither@mailbox.syr.edu (gewither) >-- Really-From: F.Meijer@student.frw.ruu.nl (Frank Meijer) >Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM >>RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) >It means something like: "in Dusseldorf at the Rhine. sounds. it soon" >Frank Better would be: "In Dusseldorf on the Rhine, it will soon sound. Jerry Withers Only Amiga //// A2000/850HD 030/882/9Mb 50Mhz //// makes A2386 & VGA 150MB HD gewither@.mailbox.syr.edu \\\\//// it A2230 GVP Spectrum 28/24 \\\///possible! AmigaD0S 3.1 CD-ROM ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 00:54:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: gewither@mailbox.syr.edu (gewither) >-- Really-From: Nthings@aol.com >i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like >Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the >question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 >being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 >KW2 or R and F on vynl?? >-Nate hard to say really. It is a definate must-hear. At least once anyway. I have it but don't listen to it very often. For the price I'd say go for it, just to get the collection together. When you do listen to it, make an effort to REALLY listen to it. It is a lot of work to listen to it. :) Jerry Withers Only Amiga //// A2000/850HD 030/882/9Mb 50Mhz //// makes A2386 & VGA 150MB HD gewither@.mailbox.syr.edu \\\\//// it A2230 GVP Spectrum 28/24 \\\///possible! AmigaD0S 3.1 CD-ROM ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #473 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #474 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Saturday, 24 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 474 Re: Kraftwerk Re: telephone call Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: Kraftwerk Early KW Re: Early KW CHEAP International phone calls KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:12:42 +0100 Subject: Re: Kraftwerk Really-From: h8551159@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at (Michael Wilhelm Melzer) >Really-From: F.Meijer@student.frw.ruu.nl (Frank Meijer) > > >Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM >>RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) > > >It means something like: "in Dusseldorf at the Rhine. sounds. it soon" > >Frank > >your translation is correct >michael ______________ Mag. Michael Melzer Hietzinger Kai 125/11; A-1130 Wien (Vienna) tel privat: +43 1-87 65 637 tel office: +43 1-50 1 36-86 fax office: +43 1-50 1 36-67 ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:14:32 +0100 Subject: Re: telephone call Really-From: h8551159@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at (Michael Wilhelm Melzer) >Really-From: Omega > > >> Really-From: carpe noctem >> >> i have "the telephone call" video on tape (along with "musique >> non-stop"). there was a guy on here about a year ago selling kraftwerk >> video compilations and i got a copy of that, too. it has lots of >> interesting stuff on it... > > I wonder if that was me? I was offering a tape that included >four Kraftwerk videos, and I filled the tape up with other 'related' >videos (artists who've been influenced by the band--John Foxx, FM and >others). Anyone who wants more info can e-mail me. > > --Omega > > >> >> ______________________________ >> jwgrote@silver.ucs.indiana.edu >> >> > >omega@io.org >small sig, eh? > > >please give more information michael ______________ Mag. Michael Melzer Hietzinger Kai 125/11; A-1130 Wien (Vienna) tel privat: +43 1-87 65 637 tel office: +43 1-50 1 36-86 fax office: +43 1-50 1 36-67 ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:16:44 +0100 Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: h8551159@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at (Michael Wilhelm Melzer) >Really-From: Nthings@aol.com > > >i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like >Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the >question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 >being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 >KW2 or R and F on vynl?? >-Nate > >scale 2 you probably would not like it it`s quite different from later kraftwerk stuff michael ______________ Mag. Michael Melzer Hietzinger Kai 125/11; A-1130 Wien (Vienna) tel privat: +43 1-87 65 637 tel office: +43 1-50 1 36-86 fax office: +43 1-50 1 36-67 ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:58:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 12:54 AM 2/23/96 -0500, Nthings@aol.com wrote: >>i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like >>Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the >>question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 >>being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 >>KW2 or R and F on vynl?? >>-Nate > >hard to say really. It is a definate must-hear. At least once anyway. I have >it but don't listen to it very often. For the price I'd say go for it, just to >get the collection together. When you do listen to it, make an effort to >REALLY listen to it. It is a lot of work to listen to it. Actually, Kraftwerk already did all the work for you. Your job is simple now. Just sit back, throw the headphones on, close your eyes, and engage yourself in the ride that is 'Kraftwerk 2'. Just to speak on behalf of this album's merits, I'll point out that this album provides the listener with a broader range of possibilities for interpretation than later releases like 'The Man-Machine' and 'Computer World'. I certainly hope that older material like 'Kraftwerk 2' will not end up on the same list that many KW fans have put 'Electric Cafe' and 'The Mix' on. Just for the record, I love all KW albums. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "From station to station, back to Dusseldorf City..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 08:51:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Kraftwerk Really-From: "Gerald E. Withers" On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > Really-From: h8551159@asterix.wu-wien.ac.at (Michael Wilhelm Melzer) > > > >Really-From: F.Meijer@student.frw.ruu.nl (Frank Meijer) > > > > > >Kraftwerk cone'. This cover contains the German writing "IN DUSSELDORF AM > >>RHEIN~ Klingt. es bald..." Anyone care to translate that for me? :o) > > > > > >It means something like: "in Dusseldorf at the Rhine. sounds. it soon" > > > >Frank > > > >your translation is correct > > >michael It may be correct, but awkward. "It will soon sound" is better > > ______________ > > Mag. Michael Melzer > > Hietzinger Kai 125/11; A-1130 Wien (Vienna) > tel privat: +43 1-87 65 637 > tel office: +43 1-50 1 36-86 fax office: +43 1-50 1 36-67 > ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 14:11:40 -0500 Subject: Early KW Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com I think that Scott M. Barnhill has the best grasp in this arguement. The early Kraftwerk albums are absolutely wonderful pieces of music and beautiful sound. As I explained in my picturesque drive around town segment, just pop in an early kraftwerk album and drive around the city listening to all the wonderful sounds 'spilling from the speakers.' Even the pops on the record add so much wonderful electronic life to the sound. It;s certainley easier than popping in a full length version of Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music and jamming to that for two hours. But they are both fun........ Jason Mask ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 00:50:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Early KW Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 02:11 PM 2/23/96 -0500, ManMachn2@aol.com wrote: >I think that Scott M. Barnhill has the best grasp in this arguement. The >early Kraftwerk albums are absolutely wonderful pieces of music and beautiful >sound. As I explained in my picturesque drive around town segment, just pop >in an early kraftwerk album and drive around the city listening to all the >wonderful sounds 'spilling from the speakers.' >Even the pops on the record add so much wonderful electronic life to the >sound. It;s certainley easier than popping in a full length version of Lou >Reed's Metal Machine Music and jamming to that for two hours. But they are >both fun........ >Jason Mask Thank you ever so kindly for expressing your sentiment of affirmation. The early albums are truly as wonderful and alive as the later material. By the way, I just got back from the city with my brand new copy of Pascal Bussy's "Kraftwerk: Man, Machine, and Music". Thanks to all those who helped me to locate the book here in the New York City area. I began reading the intro and chapter one on the train, and now here I am. The rest is for after dinner, and I'm sure I'll have more to say as my reading progresses. Cheers for now. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Another lonely night....lonely night...." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 19:48:18 -0500 Subject: CHEAP International phone calls Really-From: SBSchupper@aol.com We offer CHEAP international phone service within Europe and to the rest of the world. Email for more info. We're also looking for sales agents, reps and partners. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:21:43 +0100 (MET) Subject: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Really-From: Anders Wilhelm Does anyone know anything about a record with the name Fernwarme? I believe that M. Rother is involved in it. The infobahr will move to a new adress during the next months. Keep your eyes open for http://www.klingklang.se The old site will remain however. Feel free to participate with material, if you have articles, pictures, audiomaterial. Contact me for information on how to ftp to the infobahr. Btw. Has anyone got information on how things are going for Andrew Slegts band, Kinetik? /anders - -- *************************************************************************** * Anders Wilhelm * em: dvlawm@cs.umu.se * "I program my Home-computer, * * Umea University * url:http://wwwtdb.cs.* feel myself into the future" * * Sweden * umu.se/~dvlawm/ * -Florian Schneider, 1981 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 21:38:32 -0500 Subject: Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Really-From: Curryous@aol.com Fernwarme was michael rother's fourth solo album released in 1981. I spoke to him yesterday and his new album, Esperanza, will be out in 2 weeks. Check out my web site http://www.rcww.com/curiosa.htm for more detail. Russ Curry Curious Music ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 04:32:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Curryous@aol.com wrote: >Fernwarme was michael rother's fourth solo album released in 1981. I spoke to >him yesterday and his new album, Esperanza, will be out in 2 weeks. Check out >my web site http://www.rcww.com/curiosa.htm for more detail. > >Russ Curry >Curious Music 'Esperanza' sounds an *awful* lot like 'Esperanto'. Think there's any intentional reference to Elektric Music here on the part of Rother? Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Life is timeless....Europe endless...." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #474 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #475 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Sunday, 25 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 475 Kling Klang Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Kinetik Re: Kinetik ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 07:46:13 -0500 Subject: Kling Klang Really-From: mach25@indy.net (becker fred) Kling Klang is one of my all-time favorite KW tracks! Follow it bith Dino by Harmonia (from Deluxe) for a great transition in making car tapes. Another great transition is Autobahn followed by Dino. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 08:21:47 -0500 Subject: Re: KW Infobahr, Fernwarme? Really-From: Curryous@aol.com I doubt it, Scott. But yes, I was struck by the title too. RC ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 18:02:08 +0000 Subject: Kinetik Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > Has anyone got information on how things are going for > Andrew Slegts band, Kinetik? I thought that Kinetik were Colin Jordan and Shirleyann Davies? Is Andrew Slegt also involved? Klaus Zaepke ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 02:14:06 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Kinetik Really-From: Anders Wilhelm > > Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > > > > Has anyone got information on how things are going for > > Andrew Slegts band, Kinetik? > > I thought that Kinetik were Colin Jordan and Shirleyann Davies? Is > Andrew Slegt also involved? > > Klaus Zaepke Hello Klaus, Yep, I don't know if he is a fulltime member, he was in the line-up for the concert against that power station in Wales, released on CD as "Burning issue". A really nice album, sounds *a bit* like Elektric Music. I can make a copy if you want one... Did you recieve the video from Edinburgh 1991? /aw - -- *************************************************************************** * Anders Wilhelm * em: dvlawm@cs.umu.se * "I program my Home-computer, * * Umea University * url:http://wwwtdb.cs.* feel myself into the future" * * Sweden * umu.se/~dvlawm/ * -Florian Schneider, 1981 * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #475 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #476 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Monday, 26 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 476 KW's Discontent with Bussy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 01:37:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KW's Discontent with Bussy Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu Fellow Kraftwerkians, I've just finished reading Pascal Bussy's book about KW entitled "Kraftwerk: Man, Machine, and Music". I remember there being a discussion on the list some time ago about the fact that there was something which appeared in Bussy's book that Ralf and Florian were not happy about, and thus it caused some sort of a rift between KW and Bussy. Can anyone tell me exactly what it was that KW were unhappy about with this book? Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "Even the greatest stars..." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #476 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #477 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Tuesday, 27 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 477 Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Re: Kinetik Re: telephone call Re: WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Re: WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths RE: Bussy's book. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 12:44:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Really-From: David Davis On Fri, 23 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > > >atmosphere via bass guitars... the last track "Harmonika" is haunting > >because of its simple instrumentation -- a seemingly cheap accordian > >surprisingly! > > Accordian? As far as I know, Ralf Hutter played a harmonika (or > literally "mouth organ") on this track, hence the title. In fact, you'll > find that the accordian is not credited anywhere on the album's sleeve as > part of the instrumentation used on this recording, and the 'Harmonika' is > listed as one of the instruments played by Hutter on this album. > > Robotically Yours, > Scott M. Barnhill > mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu > "Turn the dials with your hand..."> > The sleeve notes to Kraftwerk 2 are in German!! ,,Harmonika" in English means Harmonium , which is an upright keyboard instrument with reeds; you pump the air through with a foot-pedal as you play.Basically the same sound generation system as an accordian or a mouth-organ , I suppose, but with a distinct timbre of its own. Conny Plank & Kraftwerk seem to have treated the sound somewhat before it reached the tapes,however.A gorgeous coda to the 2nd album! yours pedantically/informatively (delete to taste) david.davis ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 10:10:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Really-From: Omega On Mon, 26 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > ,,Harmonika" in English means Harmonium , which is an upright keyboard What? A Harmonika (German) is not a Harmonica (English)? Wow. I do know what a harmonium is, but this one stretch! :) omega@io.org small sig, eh? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:01:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Kinetik Really-From: Thomas Weckert On Sat, 24 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > Really-From: fh5y013@public.uni-hamburg.de > > > > > Has anyone got information on how things are going for > > Andrew Slegts band, Kinetik? > > I thought that Kinetik were Colin Jordan and Shirleyann Davies? Is > Andrew Slegt also involved? > > Klaus Zaepke > > They played several live dates in the UK, and recently released a CD in limited edition. In fact, AS is also involved. Thomas tweckert@ernie.mi.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 17:06:32 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: telephone call Really-From: Thomas Weckert On Thu, 22 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > Really-From: carpe noctem > > > hi - > > i have "the telephone call" video on tape (along with "musique > non-stop"). there was a guy on here about a year ago selling kraftwerk > video compilations and i got a copy of that, too. it has lots of > interesting stuff on it... > > ______________________________ > jwgrote@silver.ucs.indiana.edu > > Are you willing to send me a copy of that tape? Actually, my video recorder died, and I can't send you an other tape, all I can offer to you is Elektric picture single and a sticker... Thomas tweckert@ernie.mi.uni-koeln.de ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:12:48 +0100 Subject: Re: WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Really-From: vanluyke@innet.be (Van Luyken Consultants Belgium) >Really-From: Nthings@aol.com > > >i want kraftwerk 1, kraftwerk 2 and raulf and flaurin on record e mail me > I have Kraftwerk 1 on original copy (Philips) in absolutely perfect/mint condition, sleeve and record. What do you offer ? Emmanuel Emmanuel Goedseels vanluyke@innet.be ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:14:09 +0100 Subject: Re: WOULD I LIKE KRAFTWERK 2? Really-From: vanluyke@innet.be (Van Luyken Consultants Belgium) > >i like albums like autobahn, computer world, man machine ECT. would i like >Krafwerk 2? a local store hase the germaphonin cd re issue for $15.75 the >question is would i like it? on a scale from 1 to 10 1 being garbage and 10 >being kraftwerks best album what does it rate?? also is anyone sellink KW1 >KW2 or R and F on vynl?? >-Nate I have Kraftwerk 1 on original copy (Philips) in absolutely perfect/mint condition, sleeve and record. What do you offer ? Emmanuel Emmanuel Goedseels vanluyke@innet.be ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 14:28:17 -0500 Subject: Re: WTB: KW1 KW2 AND R AND F ON RECORD Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i really have no clue what its worth so you tell me a price ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:10:04 -0500 Subject: Synths Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do any of us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have and what makes up your studios? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 02:49:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 07:10 PM 2/26/96 -0500, ManMachn2@aol.com wrote: >Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do any of >us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have and what >makes up your studios? Greetings once again, fellow Kraftwerkians. I would imagine that many of us are involved with music on some more personal level than simply listening to other people's music. I myself am a musician with my own studio here in the New York City metro area. My main synths are the Roland D-70, Korg 01W-FD, Yamaha DX7II, Roland D550 (rack module), Juno 106, and Korg M1. Other than synths, I use equipment like Akai S1000, S950, and S900 samplers, Sony 500ES DAT, Fender and Gibson guitars, Fender and Marshall amps, and a 64 input Allen & Heath console. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "I give you my affection and I give you my time..." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:23:43 +0000 () Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Brian MacDonald On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, kraftwerk mailing list wrote: > Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu > Greetings once again, fellow Kraftwerkians. I would imagine that > many of us are involved with music on some more personal level than simply > listening to other people's music. I myself am a musician with my own > studio here in the New York City metro area. My main synths are the Roland > D-70, Korg 01W-FD, Yamaha DX7II, Roland D550 (rack module), Juno 106, and > Korg M1. Other than synths, I use equipment like Akai S1000, S950, and S900 > samplers, Sony 500ES DAT, Fender and Gibson guitars, Fender and Marshall > amps, and a 64 input Allen & Heath console. Well, the stuff I get to use is a bit, ur, less lavish if you will. Okee, what do I use? Hmmmmmm.... Let's start with drum machines: * Rhythm Ace.. with 16 presets! Including the standard set: Samba, Bossanova, Cha Cha, Slow Rock, Tango, Waltz, etc. * Olson... with Twist and Surfin. * an unmarked model... with Fox Trot, Habanera, and Baion. Synths: Farfisa organ and Casio SK-5. All of the above cost about $150 total... all purchased at swap meets. > Robotically Yours, > Scott M. Barnhill > mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu > "I give you my affection and I give you my time..." Yes. K!z!K "You stand behind me... with a TV and a keyboard that someone has lent... you. You're good at standing still. I am good at singing. We love it. It pays our rent." -- Raw Sex ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 07:51:31 -0100 Subject: RE: Bussy's book. Really-From: Nexus - -- [ From: Nexus * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Regarding the Bussy book: Pascal told me at the time the German release was scheduled that Florian called him some night to tell him verbatim "Your book, it's shit." They were very unhappy, apparently, about some personal facts cited in the book (i.e. Florian's father was architect, etc). Following this Ralf & Florian tried to cancel the German release by pretending to hold all of the photographs' right in the book... Hope this helps, Nexus. ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #477 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #478 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Wednesday, 28 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 478 Re: Synths RE: Bussy book....Ralph and Florian have lost it Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Synths Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Yes, he does... Florian upset Re: synths looking for cheesy drum machines WTB: rythem ace Re: Synths Live shows 81 Re: Live shows 81 Re: looking for cheesy drum machines Re: Synths ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:44:07 +0100 (MET) Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: dcakl006@nlmodnet1.mod.nl.mod.nl (ir D. Barth) > Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com > > > Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do any of > us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have and what > makes up your studios? > Are we going to have the same discussions again? Please read first the archives of this mailing list. Erik Barth ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 12:13:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RE: Bussy book....Ralph and Florian have lost it Really-From: David Davis > > Regarding the Bussy book: > > Pascal told me at the time the German release was scheduled that Florian > called him some night to tell him verbatim "Your book, it's shit." They were > very unhappy, apparently, about some personal facts cited in the book (i.e. > Florian's father was architect, etc). Following this Ralf & Florian tried to > cancel the German release by pretending to hold all of the photographs' > right in the book... > > > Nexus. > Oh bloody hell! That's outrageous!How on earth could they say Bussy's book was shit?? ... It's about 50 times better written than any of the teeny bop pap photo books or mainstream sycophantic MOR 'RRack' biographies that clog up the "music" shelves on in bookshops. They should have been proud of it, it was a credit to them I for one am getting whole-hartedly sick to death of Ralph and Florian's obsessions and paranoia with their author functions Even the departure of Bartos & Flur doesn't seem to have shaken them to their senses! They should stop their petty attempts to be in 101% control of the minds of the people who hear their music and make some new bloody records! Harrumph! david.davis ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 12:18:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Simon Stuart >Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do any of >us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have and what >makes up your studios? Hmm, well. I've been making music (after a fashion) for about six years now; unfortunately, due to lack of funds, I've never managed to gather vast amounts of equipment. There's two of us in the band; between us we've got a Juno 6 (yes, that's *6*, not 60 or 106), a clapped-out Crumar Stratos, an Elka Professional, a Cheetah candle-powered drum machine, an Alesis drum machine that's way beyond me and a bottom-end Korg sequencer. Most of this actually belongs to Ian, the other member of the band, so I haven't a clue about details...hey, I just write the songs and play the instruments :-i~ Still...using a variety of amusing home-recording techniques, we've actually managed to come up with some rather good stuff. Well...we like it, anyway. Cheers, Simon ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 12:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 09:44 AM 2/27/96 +0100, dcakl006@nlmodnet1.mod.nl.mod.nl (ir D. Barth) wrote: >> Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com >> >> >> Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do any of >> us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have and what >> makes up your studios? >> > >Are we going to have the same discussions again? Please read first the >archives of this mailing list. > >Erik Barth Cheer up, Erik. I am sure that we have lots of new members on this mailing list who were not around back when we had discussions pertaining to our home studios and equipment and such quite a while back. Perhaps they would like to express themselves and discuss their hobby too, rather than just reading back-issues about everyone else's gear. In any event, it can't hurt. A discussion like that is far better than no discussion at all, especially on a discussion list that doesn't always see too much discussion. ;o) Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "We're standing here....exposing ourselves...." ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:37:53 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com Where in NY? I live in East Northport, and always like to stay in touch with like-minded musicians. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:37:27 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com Yes, I have a home 4-track studio (the quality is quite good!) including an Oberheim OB-8, a few Casios (including the cheap sampling keyboard, which is actually pretty cool), an Alesis SR-16 drum machine, various cheap toy pianos and organs, drums, bass, guitars, various effects devies etc. Not state of the art--no sequencers, computer music programming etc., but lots of fun! And yes, I've recorded a couple of Kraftwerk covers, just for fun--"The Model" (the most-covered KW song?) and "Neon Lights!" ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:39:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com SOome of my best instruments were purchased at garage sales and flea markets. I once bought a Martin ukulele for $3! ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Spotnik@aol.com Yes, what's more fun than obssessing about your favorite musicians, gear, bands etc.? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:14:37 +0100 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Paulo Mouat > Since we are all Kraftwerk and electronic fans, I was wondering....do > any of us have synths and studios? If so, what synths do you all have > and what makes up your studios? Well, I've started a studio some time ago with a couple of friends, but it is nothing compared to some postings on this subject mainly because it is not oriented towards professional daily work. It is rather an array of resources for personal use and experimentation--a laboratory as I said previously on this list. Our sources are, in the synth realm, Korg 01W/FD and a Roland JD-800 (good old sliders & knobs & filters & envelopes & LFOs :-)). I use for quite some time a great piece of software (CSound) which is a virtual synthesizer, and it can do whatever you want, be it in additive or subtractive matrix synthesis, sampling, speech-like formant synthesis, phase vocoder, fx, waveshaping, analysis, ... The best of it is that CSound is *free* (it is the base of much of the original and current electronic music projects in MIT, CCRMA, etc, and is evolving since the 50's--the dawning of computer music). Oh, I use also a dedicated Mac running Opcode's Vision sequencer and Opcode/IRCAM's Max for music data programming. My next buy will be a Kurzweil K2500R, very soon. As you can see, my "sound producing modules" aren't, as would be expected, an array of synths and rack modules. Our philosophy is biased towards computer-generated electronic music rather than keyboard- generated electronic music, although there are some essential synths/expanders which we are planning to acquire (Oberheim Matrix 12 or Yamaha TX816, for instance) just because of their intrinsic sound, which sometimes is so characteristic because of either glitches in the design or limitations of technology (and there is no maths or sound synthesis theory to emulate these!). Best! - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 17:46:59 +0100 Subject: Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Yes, he does... Really-From: Paulo Mouat > ,,Harmonika" in English means Harmonium, which is an upright keyboard > instrument with reeds; you pump the air through with a foot-pedal as > you play.Basically the same sound generation system as an accordian or > a mouth-organ , I suppose, but with a distinct timbre of its own. This is not quite correct, IMHO. "Harmonium" is used both in english *and* german to name the instrument you describe above. "Harmonika" is indeed a harmonica or mouth-organ. The last track of "Kraftwerk 2" is a mouth-organ, but it was taped and played at half the normal tape speed when recording the album. If you have doubts, record it and play it at double speed, you even hear the breathing! > yours pedantically/informatively Likewise. - -- ********************************* Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt ********************************* ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 19:24:10 +0100 Subject: Florian upset Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) >Pascal told me at the time the German release was scheduled that Florian >called him some night to tell him verbatim "Your book, it's shit." They were >very unhappy, apparently, about some personal facts cited in the book (i.e. >Florian's father was architect, etc). Hmm, i heard Florian got very upset when the boot Heute Abend was released, cause my recording of the soundcheck was on it. ("Now she's a big success i want to f*** her again" :) He threatened to do something nasty if he ever got hold of the guy who did it... Don't play with fire, guys! Jan Sundstrom "Pa motorvagen, forbi kyrkogarden reser manniskor till sina hem. Allt ar sa bra" (Arvid Tuba - 'Allt ar sa bra') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 15:12:26 -0500 Subject: Re: synths Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com yes, i am rather new and i just wanted to spark some conversation because my last attempt failed. oh well, my home studio contains yamaha SY-85, roland JD-800, sequential Prophet-600, Pro-one, yamaha CS-5, CS-01, roland CR-5000 drums, Juno-106, RMI keyboard computer, EMU-emulator 1, mackie 1604 mixer, tascam 8-track, tascam 4 track, a 1960's 4 track, emu-vintage keys, alesis D4, boss SE-70, effectron jr., and some old electronic drum pads :-) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:40:55 -0500 Subject: looking for cheesy drum machines Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i want to buy a drum machine that sounds like the drums on klingklang does anyone know of one that sounds like it? anyone selling any? ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:42:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: rythem ace Really-From: Nthings@aol.com i want a rythm ace e mail mw with price ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:44:40 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: Nthings@aol.com I got a moog prodigy and a moog opus 3 in my 4 track studio here in NY. ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 23:26:08 +0100 Subject: Live shows 81 Really-From: d-sunjan@jmk.su.se (Jan Sundstrom) I have i livetape from 81 (Tokyo) where KW sings about all the places they visited during the tour. It goes like "From Dusseldorf to Hamburg on the autobahn, from Hamburg to Tokyo aeroplane" etc etc, mentioning a lot of places and how they got there. They didn't do that very often, did they??? On how many show did they sing that stunt? any witnesses? Jan Sundstrom "I'll steal myself a car, Ferrari or a Jaguar Drive it at a crazy speed Straight over the cliff and into the sea Maybe i'll be happy if that was guaranteed" (Catherine Wheel - 'Car') ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:09:13 -0500 Subject: Re: Live shows 81 Really-From: Nthings@aol.com in my copy of computertour they sing about coffie and eating in restaraunts in the song autobahn ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:28:04 -0500 Subject: Re: looking for cheesy drum machines Really-From: ManMachn2@aol.com my roland CR-5000 is an analog 'beat-box.' it sounds very similar to the one on "klingklang". my advice is to look in pawn shops for old organ drum machines, since that is basically what kraftwerk used anyway (perhaps a bit modified, but for 'klingklang,' i doubt it). ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:27:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu At 09:37 AM 2/27/96 -0500, Spotnik@aol.com wrote: >Where in NY? I live in East Northport, and always like to stay in touch with >like-minded musicians. Glad to hear it. I live in Brooklyn and I do a lot of work in the studio in New York City, Greenwich Village area. Robotically Yours, Scott M. Barnhill mbarnhil@email.gc.cuny.edu "We are the robots..." ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #478 ******************************* From: kraftwerk To: kraftwerk-digest Subject: kraftwerk-digest V2 #479 Reply-To: kraftwerk Errors-To: kraftwerk Precedence: bulk kraftwerk-digest Thursday, 29 February 1996 Volume 02 : Number 479 Re: Live shows 81 Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Yes, he does... Re: Synths X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sorry !!! Re: Synths ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:30:55 +0000 Subject: Re: Live shows 81 Really-From: "Gustav.Holmberg" > Really-From: Nthings@aol.com > > > in my copy of computertour they sing about coffie and eating in restaraunts > in the song autobahn > > And they also mention going to Utrecht (where the concert took place) by Autobahn. Gustav Holmberg, PhD student, History of Science and Ideas Lund University, Sweden. Gustav.Holmberg@fil.lu.se http://www.df.lth.se/~wilt ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:39:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: Ralph plays the Mouth-organ !?!?!? Yes, he does... Really-From: David Davis > > This is not quite correct, IMHO. "Harmonium" is used both in english > *and* german to name the instrument you describe above. "Harmonika" > is indeed a harmonica or mouth-organ. > The last track of "Kraftwerk 2" is a mouth-organ, but it was taped and > played at half the normal tape speed when recording the album. If you > have doubts, record it and play it at double speed, you even hear the > breathing! >> -- > ********************************* > Paulo Mouat, mouat@telepac.pt > ********************************* > Heavens!How embarrassimg... I can only offer in my defence that I took my information in good faith from Pascal Bussy's book and a Collins Gem German-English dictionary. Don't believe all you read ,eh?.... (although... are you SURE it's breathing you hear at double speed... it could just be the Harmonium's bellows!!) david.davis ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 06:40:06 -0500 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: NDKent@aol.com Since the newer people on this list are mentioning their synths, I'm in the New York City area and use: Oberheim Xpander, Super Jupiter, MemoryMoog Plus, TX7, FZ1, SampleCell II. I do film and multimedia work, but not for a living. You can also catch the beginnings of my Japanese Electronic Music Artists site at: http://id.thing.net/artskool/jem/jem.html Nicholas D. Kent ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:10:40 +0000 Subject: X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" SUBSCRIBE kraftwerk ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 14:13:32 +0000 Subject: Sorry !!! Really-From: "Klaus Zaepke" > SUBSCRIBE kraftwerk Ooops, wrong address! Sorry :-) ------------------------------ From: kraftwerk@cs.uwp.edu (kraftwerk mailing list) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 17:19:53 GT-003 Subject: Re: Synths Really-From: "Hermann Henning Rauth" > If so, what synths do you all have and what makes up your studios? All I have is a DX4 100 w/ a AWE32 and a Roland PC-200 MkII as the controller. I use the AWE32 as my sampler, my FM synth AND HDD recording device. I'm running Cakewalk Pro Audio. So my studio and my synth are the same thing. Most of what I do is industrial/noisy electronic stuff. If anyone wants to trade samples, OPL patches or demotapes, email me. See you, werkies! Hermann________Henning_________Rauth _______________L_I_F_O______________ Space_Cyber_Agressive_Machine_Groove _______________B_A_N_D______________ ________hermann@ccet.pucpr.br_______ ------------------------------ End of kraftwerk-digest V2 #479 *******************************